PROBLEM with search and spot! HELP!

[Chimera]

Not only is this paranoid and stupid, opening the 'searcher' to misleading by enemies (throw a rock to make him go in direction X) and ambush, but it also opens up the sleepers to instant death.

Sure. Let the fool wander around. Barry the Bad Guy will just bait him into wandering off and leaving his friends unguarded, then run in and slit their throats in their sleep.

Or bait him into walking right into the middle of a dozen thugs, too far away for his friends to hear his screams. THEN go back and take care of the friends.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

well, i tend to think of spot as "to notice something from a distance" and search as an up-close examination.

i would definitely allow a search check to discover a hidden character, but you'd have to be fairly close to said character. however, if the player requested the search check for metagame reasons, i'd give a flat out "no."

like someone said before, it's not whether the search skill can be used in that manner, it's why is the search skill being used in that manner.

i say it can. of course, as was pointed out, it opens up the searching character and/or his sleeping party to a whole slew of bad things(tm).

 

[Gromm]

Um, yeah. I'm gonna search this area for fine details and not notice there's a halfling in the area? What, the character can't see the forest for the trees? What does the character do when he comes across the halfling's feet? "Pardon me, sir, but I'm looking for fine details. You are more a gross feature than a fine detail, so could you please stand aside, so I can continue searching?"

The question is not "Will search reveal a hidden person?" The questions is "When do I allow people to make search checks to find a hidden person?"

Yes but if you walked right up to the square the halfling was in and began to search you would see him because the DC for your spot roll would be so low. He basically cannot hide if you are looking at the square hes in (unless hes invisible I guess). Why not just attack the square he's in? It takes a full-round action to search, so I guess you mgiht find him if he sat there waiting for you to slowly make your way over to him. Even then the only reason you'd probably find him is because you'd touch him. Search isn't really a pure "seeing" skill, it involves touching things, and looking, etc. Looking at a plain wall doesn't reveal a secret door, you push on stones and look and feel and listen and something happens or you discover something odd.

I'll reiterate. Search can NEVER EVER be used to spot a hidden character. Ever. Never. Ever. Thats what spot is.
Likewise Spot can't be used to detect say a trap or find a secret door. Each skill has its own thing that it does. Spot is used to find creatures. Search is used for secret doors/traps and the like.

As far as when to let the characters use search. Never. If they want to do it let them and then make them automatically surprised by whatever is out there waiting for them (they aren't paying attention to anything save a 5' square in front of them). After a couple of times of this they should stop metagaming failed Spot rolls. Or just as good always have it fail. Like I said they can't move very fast and anything hiding from them would just move out of the way anyway (if only with a 5' step if nessessary).

Besides if they know which 5' square to search anyway, the enemy isn't really hidden. If they are guessing have them pick a square on a big sheet of graph paper. Odds are they wont get it right anyway. Then take actions for the creature on the surprise round.

 

[Crothian]

After giving this some thought I still think that searching will not find the hidden person. Hover, since spot is not proactive, if he was searching near the place wear the person was hiding I'd allow for another spot check. I think it's important to keepo the skills and their uses seperate or you're cheapening them but making certain skills more powerful then others.

 

[RObiN-HoOD]

OFFICIAL RESPONSE

Answer by thesage@wizards.com (official)

>In my party, which I DM, we have a serious problem regarding >the Spot and Search skills.
>
>Two of the players, which are also DMs and experienced >players, believe the fact that they have to use the Spot skill >to “NOTICE” something hiding, for example in the night when a >PC is at guard protecting and watching the sleeping PCs. That’s >ok. I roll spot and hide skills check to see what’s going on. >Assuming that they fail the spot check and they don’t see a >monster hiding, they claim that they can use the Search skill >to “actively” search (as it is mentioned in the search skill >description), not just notice (as stated in spot skill description) if >someone is hiding.

Uh, no.


>I believe this is wrong, not to mention overruling. This is like >getting 2 chances on finding someone and in particular with two >different rankings (one from spot and one from search).

You're right.


>Am I right or wrong to think that only Spot check counts as >apposed to hide and nothing else?

That's pretty much right. Spot checks are sometimes used for other things (such as determining encounter distance), but generally Spot checks oppose Hide checks. If you fail you're Spot check, you don't automatically get to make a Search check to try again.