Problems with Game or in Game?

[racoffin]

Forked from: Rate WotC as a company: 4e Complete?

I gotta go with Toras on this. While I can understand that some people might abuse Fly and thus it could be a problem in some games, I'm less convinced that whichever version of D&D is broken with regards to Fly. It is one of those problems I hear about here, but I haven't seen firsthand (I daresay like many of the problems I've heard about with the various versions of the game.)

I don't think this is a 3e or 4e problem. I think this is a gamer problem/incident. I'll pause here as I'll need to fork this off to pull in a few other problems from other threads and try to tie my thoughts together coherantly.

I've been watching, lurking mostly, and observing the often-heated conversations regarding the problems with the D&D game (whichever the edition). Posters have sometimes used these problems as a launch pad to discuss why X or Y edition of the game is the best or sucks the most. However, I submit that these problems (and I won't insult either camp by using quote marks around the term) are not necessarily indicative of a broken system, but rather a more telling indication of the players (or Dungeon Master) thinking in metagame terms, looking for loopholes, or otherwise going out of their way to push the envelope to get their way/to win/to control the players/whatever.

The problems (at least most recently) that I've seen commented on have been:

1. Flying
2. 15 minute Days

In addition, although it hasn't been a recent war, I've seen a great deal of commentary over prestige classes and the relative brokeness of X class.

In my mind and in my opinion, these are not problems.

Flying is a problem in some campaigns. Some game masters see it as the players attempting to avoid encounters, obstacles, and events in order to "get to the good stuff". Other gamers have never heard of this problem as their players don't tend to flit around in the air across the world, or their mages are too busy playing artillery rather than Air Force.

15 minute days? I'd never heard of the term before here, although I've seen it done once or twice throughout the years. Most of my players, however, come from the old days where they pressed grimly on until they could find a safer place, or else had to retreat a goodly distance away from the now alerted bad guys. The mages tended to think about how to be effective when low on or out of spells instead of the whole party packing it in.

My main source of confusion and dismay has come from the discussions on how X class is broken or overpowered. Usually, the discussion at that point becomes an interesting exercise in using every single book (by WOTC and 3p) to create the optimum engine of destruction. Most of the builds seem to require that the DM allows unlimited access to everything ever written, that the player will get all the magic items they need for the build, and that the DM is asleep or unwilling to say "No."

The above instances (and I am sure others) do not seem to be problems with the tools we have been given: the various editions of D&D (or whatever game you are playing. I've seen this same sort of thing go on with Shadowrun, World of Darkness, Hero, etc.) The first two are simply differences in styles of play, and might be something that the group needs to sit down and discuss (as in, Hey, it is really screwing me up that you are flying/teleporting all over the place.) The last is, IMHO, sort of like the parent who lets their child run wild and then asks everyone, "Why does my kid run all over me and cause all these problems?" Yes, anyone who has looked over a rule book or three can probably make all sorts of super builds that can do hundreds of points of damage in a swing or leap over the Grand Canyon. And they are interesting exercises. But shouldn't the DM, the other players, the group in general, try to set down some sort of guidelines on what the world has and doesn't have and make it a world rather than the equivilent of Doom on God Mode?

So, I put it to you. Are these actual problems with the game(s) or are they more problems people have in their games with some players/playing styles?

 

[Rechan]

By using the same argument, I could claim that 3.0 Haste or Harm was merely a player problem, and WotC hadn't any reason to change it when 3.5 come along. Or, that all the changes of 3.5 were merely playstyle problems.

I don't think that the Cleric or Druid needs any supplements to rule the day. They were built to encourage people to play them, and thus were loaded in an unbalanced fashion from day 1.

And by that same extension, it's not "a playstyle that's a problem" when the playstyle develops because the system is set up that way. There may be elements of it that are attributed to a playstyle, but there's nothing that I can point to and say "The only error here are the gamers, not the system."

It sounds to me more like an attribute of "Because it hasn't become a problem for me, it isn't a problem." For instance, I could say that "Hey, combat has never been bogged down with too many rules and too slow for me; I don't know what you guys are talking about". Of course, I have never played past level 7, so I've never had to deal with the slow-down of high level combat. However, with the frequency that the problems show up on the boards, I would argue that it is one. If you believe that it isn't a problem, then I would have to ask: what is the necessary number of people who report it as a problem for them before x is acknowledged as an inherent flaw with rule Y, instead of it being individual differences?

 

[Doug McCrae]

The default assumption in 3e (as it is in 4e) is that magic items can be bought and sold. So in the typical game a PC will have whatever magic he can afford. Restricting the availability of magic items just makes the big three - wizard, cleric and druid - even more powerful relative to the grunts as the grunts are the most gear dependent.

You don't have to go outside core to find bah-rokeness. Spells are broken, I've been saying so for a long time. For example haste allows the wizard to exceed the damage output of the entire party with a single round's action. If he twiddles his thumbs every other round he still tops the dps meter. In the last campaign where I played a wizard I solo-ed a tough CR14 monster (a ragewalker) at level 9 with a combo of fly, web and cloudkill. This is a monster with a spell resistance 26 btw, that I, a wizard, am beating cause spells are broken. Another example from core - flying invisible summoner. This is invincible against any foe that doesn't have both see invisible and either flight or a ranged attack. And that's at low to mid level. At high level it gets much, much worse.

Sure, the DM can go through every spell and feat and PrC and magic item, weeding out all the broken stuff. Even core only that would take a lot of time and effort. But wouldn't it be easier to buy a system where you don't have to do that?

 

[racoffin]

And by that same extension, it's not "a playstyle that's a problem" when the playstyle develops because the system is set up that way. There may be elements of it that are attributed to a playstyle, but there's nothing that I can point to and say "The only error here are the gamers, not the system."

It sounds to me more like an attribute of "Because it hasn't become a problem for me, it isn't a problem." For instance, I could say that "Hey, combat has never been bogged down with too many rules and too slow for me; I don't know what you guys are talking about". Of course, I have never played past level 7, so I've never had to deal with the slow-down of high level combat. However, with the frequency that the problems show up on the boards, I would argue that it is one. If you believe that it isn't a problem, then I would have to ask: what is the necessary number of people who report it as a problem for them before x is acknowledged as an inherent flaw with rule Y, instead of it being individual differences?

The boards, however, are filled up with people who enjoy taking the game apart and digging through every nook and cranny. It's the equivilent of dealing with a bunch of car nuts. Sure, you can break the game and yes problems come up if you add certain elements together. Is it a problem to the vast silent majority that doesn't come here (or elsewhere) to post? That is the question. I'd agree that if large numbers of the patrons here say something is a problem, there might be a problem, sure. But I'd be more interested to see why it is a problem and if those with the problem are doing the same thing and those without it aren't doing that same thing (if you follow me).

To my thinking, if people are taking are, say, napping after every two encounters so they can have all their spells and hit points, then that might be a "problem" no matter the edition you play. Is it the game is built to force you to do that, or is it that the players are making a conscious choice and are allowed to do it by the GM?

 

[racoffin]

Sure, the DM can go through every spell and feat and PrC and magic item, weeding out all the broken stuff. Even core only that would take a lot of time and effort. But wouldn't it be easier to buy a system where you don't have to do that?

It'd be great to buy a system that was considered unbroken right out of the box. But I haven't seen that yet, myself (although I am waiting! ). There are gamers, no matter the system, who take great delight and glee in seeing if they can break a system, and they will tell you loudly and often how this or that is broken after their extensive tests and experiments.

Plus, isn't it fun to wander through the various information and see it how fits into your world, pruning what you don't need and adding what you do? Or is that just me?

 

[Rechan]

The boards, however, are filled up with people who enjoy taking the game apart and digging through every nook and cranny. It's the equivilent of dealing with a bunch of car nuts.

One doesn't have to dismantle the system to see some of the problems. To use the car/car nut problem, I don't need to be an expert on engines when my AC doesn't work, my brakes grind, and my motor squeals like a molested cat every time I turn it on.

Otherwise, my point that you didn't quote, is that any problem can be attributed to playstyle rather than the system. So where's the line?

To my thinking, if people are taking are, say, napping after every two encounters so they can have all their spells and hit points, then that might be a "problem" no matter the edition you play. Is it the game is built to force you to do that, or is it that the players are making a conscious choice and are allowed to do it by the GM?

And to my thinking, it is both the player and the game. As I said before, playstyle is a contributing factor, but it's not the only part of the problem. Symptom and cause. And I say the system is the cause, the playstyle is the symptom. The game may not be built to force it, but it 1) encourages it, and 2) doesn't penalize it.

 

[racoffin]

One doesn't have to dismantle the system to see some of the problems. To use the car/car nut problem, I don't need to be an expert on engines when my AC doesn't work, my brakes grind, and my motor squeals like a molested cat every time I turn it on.

Otherwise, my point that you didn't quote, is that any problem can be attributed to playstyle rather than the system. So where's the line?

And to my thinking, it is both the player and the game. As I said before, playstyle is a contributing factor, but it's not the only part of the problem. Symptom and cause. And I say the system is the cause, the playstyle is the symptom. The game may not be built to force it, but it 1) encourages it, and 2) doesn't penalize it.

That is a good question. Where is the line? One person says something is a problem, one says there isn't. Who is right and who is wrong? And that seems to be the thrust of many of the arguments: One person or side says X is a problem, and an equally vocal side/person says that it isn't. Both sides argue back and forth about it. Who is 'more' right?

I guess my point in all of this is that if the problems are player/playstyle related, you are going to have issues no matter the edition you use. WOTC may fix some of the problems people may have had with 3.5E in the new 4th Edition, but if your players tend towards wanting to loophole into omnipotence, then you still have problems.

 

[RFisher]

All RPG systems are “broken”. There will never be one that isn’t.

(OK, except maybe the Six Word RPG.)

There are two things about (typical) RPGs that makes this a non-problem.

1. There’s a judge/GM/DM who can serve as a living rulebook adjusting things on the fly to make up for imperfect rules. (In actuality it usually is a balance between “judge” and “group”, but in either case, things get adjusted to make the rules work for the group.)

2. It’s a coöperative game. If your companion can do amazing things, that is good because they’re on your side. (Provided every player is getting to contribute in some way—which no rules can guarantee.)

I suspect most groups quietly make darn near any system work for them.

 

[Rechan]

I guess my point in all of this is that if the problems are player/playstyle related, you are going to have issues no matter the edition you use. WOTC may fix some of the problems people may have had with 3.5E in the new 4th Edition, but if your players tend towards wanting to loophole into omnipotence, then you still have problems.

I'd have to question how using something like fly to just stay above the fray is a "Loophole". It's... well, I'd assume that's the point of the spell: staying out of melee and bypassing physical hazards.

The issue is more that it comes too early, and that there aren't enough counter-measures early on.

 

[racoffin]

I'd have to question how using something like fly to just stay above the fray is a "Loophole". It's... well, I'd assume that's the point of the spell: staying out of melee and bypassing physical hazards.

The issue is more that it comes too early, and that there aren't enough counter-measures early on.

If it comes too early, you can correct it. Heck, you can even remove the spell should it cause that many problems in your game. Counter-measures have been mentioned in other threads, the ones I can remember off the top of my head have been missle weapons, cover, other flying monsters, etc. Add to those enviromental conditions, magic storms, recovering from falling after a Dispel Magic, losing track of the party, and so forth; there are ways to guide your players back into your line of thinking. Or you could just talk to them and let them know you think it is a problem. None of which requires a new rule system to fix.

However, for all the arguments about it, there have been others who have said they have never had any such problem nor have heard about it. For my group, at least, it isn't a problem. For others it seems to be a real issue. I imagine there are issues I have with the game that others wouldn't find even something to think about, but I would consider those more a matter of taste and play style rather than a broken game.