Produce Flame and Normal Attacks

[cappun]

The produce flame spell creates a ball of flame that sits in your hand that can be used for touch attacks. What if the druid has a couple of levels of monk or casts the spell (with the Natural spell feat) while wildshaped into a bear. Can the character attack normally with the flaming hand, get normal damage from the attack and add the flame damage as well (1d4+1/two levels)?

Assuming that you would get both types of damage with a successful melee attack, what would happen if you missed with your melee attack, but role well enough to have been successful with a touch attack? Would the flame damage only apply, or would the miss for the melee attack just be a total miss?

My thought is that you could get normal and fire damage from a successful melee attack, but if you missed the melee attack you would miss completely. My reasoning is that a character attempts a touch attack differently than a melee attack so you don't do both a the same time. What do you think?

 

[cappun]

Does anyone have an opinion on this issue?

 

[pontus]

I agree.

 

[Suldulin]

I disagree on the grounds of if you make a melee attack and you miss only because of the natural armor/armor then logically you are still touching them. . .

 

[DarkJester]

I sort of disagree, as with Sulduin.If they attack,and miss,but the attack roll would have hit the touch armor class of the opponent,I would give them the fire damage.

 

[Henrix]

I strongly suggest keeping to the normal rules for delivering touch spells with unarmed attacks, i.e. attack versus normal AC, and if you miss, you miss. As in the FAQ.

 

[Suldulin]

but this isn't a spell released by touch, it's a damage affect that comes into effect when it effectively comes in contact with the target(by logic)

personally I'd have it come into effect when the paw (or maybe the bite instead if allowed to be used) with the produce flame comes into contact, thus it wouldn't affect all the attacks(unless you take the time to cast it for each) only the one claw or bite

 

[kreynolds]

I strongly suggest keeping to the normal rules for delivering touch spells with unarmed attacks, i.e. attack versus normal AC, and if you miss, you miss. As in the FAQ.

Here, here.

 

[kreynolds]

but this isn't a spell released by touch, it's a damage affect that comes into effect when it effectively comes in contact with the target(by logic)

That's right, but a touch attack is generally not a situation in which you attempt to strike your target with a weapon and deal damage. All you are trying to do is touch them, which is much easier than hitting someone with a sword. If you are trying to really hit them, meaning if you are trying to claw them and deliver a touch attack spell at the same time, you are actively trying to pop the crap out of them, which is harder than simply touching them. If you miss, that's all she wrote.

 

[The Sigil]

The produce flame spell creates a ball of flame that sits in your hand that can be used for touch attacks. What if the druid has a couple of levels of monk or casts the spell (with the Natural spell feat) while wildshaped into a bear. Can the character attack normally with the flaming hand, get normal damage from the attack and add the flame damage as well (1d4+1/two levels)?

I would rule that yes, this is acceptable.

Assuming that you would get both types of damage with a successful melee attack, what would happen if you missed with your melee attack, but role well enough to have been successful with a touch attack?

I would rule that you miss entirely. You have a choice - make a melee attack (attack damage plus flame damage) OR make a touch attack (flame damage only). You may not make a combined "I want to melee him but touch him if I can't melee him" attack.

Would the flame damage only apply, or would the miss for the melee attack just be a total miss?

I would rule that the missed melee attack is a total miss, as you chose to make a melee attack, not a touch attack.

My thought is that you could get normal and fire damage from a successful melee attack, but if you missed the melee attack you would miss completely. My reasoning is that a character attempts a touch attack differently than a melee attack so you don't do both a the same time. What do you think?

Obviously, I agree with you.

--The Sigil