D&D 5E Proficiencies don't make the class. Do they?

[Onslaught]

I'm not a big fan of 4e and it's take on classes because it "streamlined" them somehow; however I did play an Artificer back in the days of 3.5e - and also I'm a huge Eberron fan.

That said, I think Artificer is akin to the Bard: he's a jack of all trades with sauce. Bard's sauce is music. Artificer's sauce is items... and that shows the only problem with this sub-class design: there's a point where a concept deviate from "basic" abilities that makes it hard to fit in that class. That's the problem with Artificer:

*He's a spellcaster... yes. But shouldn't be able to cast as well as a wizard - the class used to emulate part of this through magic items.
*He's a skill/tool monger... yes. But less than, say, the Rogue or Bard.
*He had a "familiar" in the form of a homunculus... yes. But it was also another magic item, and could be tailored to be more akin to Ranger Animal Companion
*He's a capable combatant... kind of. Could be a second liner if build in that way.
*He was a great 5th-party-member that could fill in the gaps

So... I don't thin he'd be a good subclass for wizard, not only because of hp/proficiencies/spells/skills lists and options but also because the class is supposed to have another role in the party and a strong "item" flavor.

 

[neobolts]

I'm sure there's plenty of disagreement to be had, because what should or should not be a class is a big friggin' deal to lots of people. I'm interested in counterpoints and points of support, but I'm more interested in using this to get at what makes a class distinction in someone's mind - what warrants a new class? What finds a home somewhere else? Why? What is your personal logic?

Flavor. At the end of the day, a concept has to have so much unique flavor that it feels wholly unnatural being under the umbrella of something else. It's a pretty subjective determination, which is why consensus is difficult. Essentially the flavor of a class is a collectively accepted starting point, a minimum set of tropes that define the class. Something that carries a unique set of tropes is clearly its own class. Something that has all the tropes of a class plus a twist is clearly a subclass. When something cherry picks tropes from multiple classes and then sprinkles in its own...then everything falls apart.

Bard in prior editions, for example...

• They were under the umbrella of a multiclass fighter/thief/druid in 1e.
• Then they were classified under rogue in 2e.
• They were their own class in 3e.
• And again their own class with the arcane power source in 4e.

Whether or not they are deserving of their own class is a complex issue, they have flavor elements of one or more other classes, in part due to 2e's dabbler concept for them.

Now let's take on another (intentionally ridiculous) example. Let's apply fighter as a wizard subclass. They are essentially wizards that abstain from magical training in order to focus on physical training and weapon and armor use. It could work on paper, but the flavor is all wrong.

Artificer has the problem the bard example has. Its a little bit of multiple other classes, plus a healthy dose of its own character and assumed unique abilities. The problem is making it a class is too big and a subclass feels too small. Plus there's the problem of being in conflict with the class tropes of whatever class it is placed under. There's just no easy answer to get the flavor right.

 

[SilverfireSage]

Reading up on the Artificer specifically, I can see why people could get a little bit distraught that they would simply lump them in with Wizards. They aren't really Wizards, but they aren't really anything else either. They use Intelligence, yes, but their power comes from within, separate from a Wizard who's power comes from study. They're a little bit MAD. They make magic items.

And it's that last part that really makes me think Artificers, as they are in other editions, simply cannot work in 5E without major rewrites. A level 3 Artificer can create wondrous items without the prerequisites for that feat. In 3E, that's fine, since magic was expected rather than rare. In 5E, that's immediately game breaking, and we're only at 3rd level! There has to be a way to tone it down, and that's what they did in making it a subclass. They had to change them.

However, in no edition, not from the very start, have they been even close to wizards mechanically. For one thing, they have never been able to cast spells. Sure, they can mimic them when putting them into their magic items, but they can't actually cast them. That alone makes me think they warrant their own class. I think they were on the right track, but artificers should be more like the Alchemists in Pathfinder rather than Wizards.

So in terms of narrative, this seems to be the order of the day: Wizards study magic. Sorcerers create magic from within. Warlocks abuse magic given to them by others. Clerics are gifted divine magic from the gods. Druids gain magic from the world around them. Bards use magic through song. Artificers imbue magic into other things. Distinct narrative that requires a new class. Seems ok in my book.

 

[Minigiant]

Here's the thing artificers fans must answer.

Does the artificer have:
Full casting
Extra attack (3x)
Extra Attack plus spells weapon techniques
Rage
Or
Sneak attack.

All the current classes have one of these to function. So the artificer does too.

 

[The Human Target]

Here's the thing artificers fans must answer.

Does the artificer have:
Full casting
Extra attack (3x)
Extra Attack plus spells weapon techniques
Rage
Or
Sneak attack.

All the current classes have one of these to function. So the artificer does too.

I don't understand the question.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Really none of those. Its why cramming a square peg in a round hole doesnt work. There isnt enough design space in a subclass to let the class breathe. You could do an alt class like the spell-less ranger, but its not much more work to create a new class at that point. Making its own class has the benefit of future proofing it against any unintended consequences of a new wizard subclass that gets published in future products. Plus you can have your subclasses (homonculus master, more weapon focused guy, infusion master).

My suggestion would be like a half caster and warlock hybrid. You'd have spellcasting similar to the paladin/ranger. Extra attack at 8th or so. You'd have some invocation equivalents that function like your infusions. Some might be daily/short rest infusions, others might be at will gadgets you can always utilize, another might modify your attack (similar to the eldritch blast evocations). Have the infusion/invention level require an artificer level to use. Keep the spell list appropriate and you're good.

The 3E artificer can't be directly translated, because "make magic items cheaper" isnt a thing as making magic items really isnt a codified thing anymore. But you can have specific items be part of the class as features and fluffed abilities.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't understand the question.

Every class in in 5e has either full progression of a big class feature or combines 2 big class features together with its subclass.

So artificers need a big class feature. Weapon, armor, and skill proficiencies are not big class features anymore. 1/3 casting alone isn't enough anymore. That's why bards and warlocks are full casters.

So based on artificers flaver and story, what is its big class feature. What can it do at level 3?
Level 6? 11? 15? 20?

 

[Staffan]

Why can't the psion be a sorcerer origin? All it needs is more "psionicky" spells add to its spell list or spells known. That's easy.
Why can't the artificer be a wizard tradition? 2 more proficiencies are trivial. Creature an infustion school of spells.

The spell lists are integral parts of the class. You'll note that none of the current subclasses subtract any spells, though they can add them.

And the wizard's spell list in no way fits what an artificer should be able to do. An artificer should not be able to cast fireball or sleep, at least not without jumping through some hoops, but they should be able to cast enhance ability and a re-flavored shield of faith. A subclass can fix the latter problem, but not the former.

An artificer should have:

Reasonable casting. In 3e, they were more-or-less equivalent to bards. Bards got turned into full casters, and they should definitely have more magic than paladins, so artificers ought to be full casters as well. Their spell list should focus on buffs and construct-specific spells. I could easily see them having the equivalent of magic circle that works against constructs instead of planar things.

A bit more skilled than the baseline. Three skills would seem right, plus some tool proficiencies (thieves' tools and a crafting tool, for example).

Abilities that buff their allies. A reflavored Bardic Inspiration works fine for that purpose.

The use and creation of magic items. In my version, I gave them the rogue's Use Magic Device ability at a much lower level, and said that they do not need to know specific spells in order to craft magic items, just have spell slots of the appropriate level, but they still need to learn formulas and abide by any other DM-imposed limits on crafting.

I considered giving them an ability that allowed them to cast a concentration buff spell on an ally and somehow bypass the concentration element - either by letting the target concentrate instead, or by having the buff take up an attunement slot. This would be flavored as a temporary magic item. But I feared that would be broken because messing with concentration is dangerous.

 

[Minigiant]

The spell lists are integral parts of the class. You'll note that none of the current subclasses subtract any spells, though they can add them.

And the wizard's spell list in no way fits what an artificer should be able to do. An artificer should not be able to cast fireball or sleep, at least not without jumping through some hoops, but they should be able to cast enhance ability and a re-flavored shield of faith. A subclass can fix the latter problem, but not the former.

An artificer should have:

Reasonable casting. In 3e, they were more-or-less equivalent to bards. Bards got turned into full casters, and they should definitely have more magic than paladins, so artificers ought to be full casters as well. Their spell list should focus on buffs and construct-specific spells. I could easily see them having the equivalent of magic circle that works against constructs instead of planar things.

A bit more skilled than the baseline. Three skills would seem right, plus some tool proficiencies (thieves' tools and a crafting tool, for example).

Abilities that buff their allies. A reflavored Bardic Inspiration works fine for that purpose.

The use and creation of magic items. In my version, I gave them the rogue's Use Magic Device ability at a much lower level, and said that they do not need to know specific spells in order to craft magic items, just have spell slots of the appropriate level, but they still need to learn formulas and abide by any other DM-imposed limits on crafting.

I considered giving them an ability that allowed them to cast a concentration buff spell on an ally and somehow bypass the concentration element - either by letting the target concentrate instead, or by having the buff take up an attunement slot. This would be flavored as a temporary magic item. But I feared that would be broken because messing with concentration is dangerous.

To me that just sounds like a wizard with bonus proficiencies and a special school specialization.
Just add the infusions to the wizard spell list as part of the subclass.

Add some skills, tools, and spells to the wizard base like how the favored soul adds to the sorcerer.. Just don't pick fireball and flight. Pick the spell that turns gloves and shoes magic. The real issue is getting around the one concentration limit.

 

[Fralex]

Why can't the psion be a sorcerer origin? All it needs is more "psionicky" spells add to its spell list or spells known. That's easy.

Ooh! Ooh! I did this! I just added two bard spells that dealt psychic damage and gave psion-sorcerers the option to make their spells invisible. It's actually been working really well so far!