• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

"Progress" in your setting

CruelSummerLord

First Post
In the real world, humankind has gradually progressed technologically, and is constantly updating and changing its own thoughts and beliefs, both processes taking places over the centuries.

But in a fantasy world, things often take a different turn. Human and related cultures are still using the same swords and armor they used over two milennia ago when it comes to warfare. Tavern gamblers play poker, blackjack and roulette inspired from real-world gambling, when they did not exist in their current forms, if at all, during the Middle Ages. Social and political theories that are more at home in our modern world than in the medieval one pop up everywhere.

Some parts of art and culture will progress, others remain the same. Some aspects of technology never seem to change at all-man never invents the internal combustion engine and never invents gunpowder. Whatever happens, he and the other races will still be swinging swords and favoring sorcery over science.

To me, this is all good; I make no excusees whatsoever for having such anomalies in my games. But how do you as a worldbuilder justify having mercenaries play the equivalent of Texas Hold 'Em when they're dressed in plate mail and carry around broadswords? How do you justify that none of the highly intelligent and advanced cultures in your world has ever discovered gunpowder? How do you justify that man cannot invent a car or a submarine to save his life, and is forced to rely on grunt labor, whether his own or that of an animal, to get his work done?

I justify them in part by the fact that oil, coal and the like, and resources most necessary to provide the combustion needed to provoke industrialization and gunpowder, are either in too short supply to be able to be used on a mass scale, or they're being used by nonhuman races who have better things to do with it than embark on harebrained schemes of inventing-most notably, using it to stoke their forges, burn trolls and black puddings, or do other conventional things that people in a D&D world use fire for.

Remember, in our real world mankind never had to compete with another race for the use of these resources. If we did, chances are our competition would get control of at least some of those resources and use them for other things that we have no interest in. The presence of nonhuman races in the gameworld opens up all sorts of possibilities for explaining why some humans are still organized into Dark Age-like tribes, while others might be organized into city-states similar to those of Renaissance Italy, all while sharing the same continent.

Also, I have no objection with tinkering with the laws of science to achieve the desired results. Remember, when you cast fireballs and lightning bolts, you're basically creating energy out of nothing, which violates the basic laws of thermodynamics. If we can get away with that, I think we can get away with making gunpowder simply too explosive, reactive and dangerous to use properly. If gunpowder is too dangerous, no one will ever experiment with it, and guns are never invented.

Some might say that having social or religious restrictions might work, but that doesn't prevent "freethinkers" and subversives from still experimenting on these things anyway, and gaining followers. Of course, when the gunpowder is simply too dangerous, too deadly and tragic to use properly, these "freethinkers" are not contributing to the progress of man; they're simply a bunch of destructive nutcases who richly deserve the Darwin Awards they're going to receive.

Thoughts?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
We didn't have nonhuman races, but historically, we competed with each other for those same resources. And we've had high cultures and barbarians living on the same continent in Europe and in Asia at various points in history.

Thus, the real historical Earth is a pretty good model - you just have to look closely at the history to note it.
 

Masquerade

First Post
I'm perfectly comfortable with anachronisms in my setting. For this reason, I never refer to my game as "medieval fantasy" or anything of the like, because, in reality, the seting is a blend of medieval, renaissance, victorian, and modern concepts. I have made some attempts to explain why certain aspects of society (such as technology--my setting is about Eberron-level in this respect) aren't more developed, but, IMO, comparing a fictional world to the actual world can only negatively affect verisimilitude.
 


Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
1. The Chinese invented Gunpowder (and rockets) centuries before it was applied to anything other than entertainment. The Steam Engine was known in ancient Greece and the Parthians had batteries (weak but nonetheless functional)
=>So just because a species has the knowledge doesn't mean they will apply it

2. Magic is a technology and unlike Earth it is a predictable and (relatively) easily controlled technology

Based on these two factors it might well be that Gunpowder and Engines exist but in DnD the military application of gunpowder is superceded by the ubiquity and utility of the fireball and magic missile (which are better technologies because they never miss or backfire) the combustion engine is not required when you have flying carpets and teleport spells to travell with

Also The 'Crab Apparatus' is the DnD version of a submarine - so there is some technological innovation in DnD
 

shilsen

Adventurer
CruelSummerLord said:
Thoughts?

I let the players know right at the start of the campaign that physics, chemistry, biology, etc. in the game world do not necessarily correlate to that in our world, so they should not make the assumption that they do.

Or, more succinctly - physics is a house rule. Takes care of 99% of the things you mentioned.
 

WhatGravitas

Explorer
shilsen said:
I let the players know right at the start of the campaign that physics, chemistry, biology, etc. in the game world do not necessarily correlate to that in our world, so they should not make the assumption that they do.
And our science is not very exact in such a world. Do you *really* think people discover thermodynamics in a world, where energy is permanently created/destroyed/whatever, ditto with matter?

Biology is complete screwed up with Regeneration, Fast Healing, cure X wounds spells, and polymorph.

And the list goes on. And the people in a fantasy setting have absolutely no idea that "magic" is different from the "rest of reality", only a dispel magic or Antimagic Aura can distinguish between magic and non-magic stuff.

And now look at the great minds of our reality: They're either great philosophers (high Wisdom) or great scientists (high Intelligence).

If they're seeing something like magic, their mind would be ablaze with interest... hell, they can shape reality, instead of studying it! I.e. Plato is far more likely to end up as a cleric of the concept of Truth and Knowledge, than as a philosopher. And Newton would probably end up as a Transmuter or Diviner.

But then, you now, why there's Reverse Gravity: To keep the pesky apples from falling on your hand (and to make physics wonky).

And you see named spells in D&D, like Mordenkainen's X - that's just like Newton's Laws of Gravity. Same concept, but different outcome, due to different world.
 

Ibram

First Post
Sure progress occurs, but it is not a linear process. As kingdoms rise and fall knowledge is gained, then lost, then gained again.

Both the elves and the dwarves have gone far, mixing sorcery and technology together in ways now unimaginable. Yet the wars they waged shattered their leaving only a few scattered settlments.

I've run games spread across about 300 years. Earler games do not have black powder weapons, or they are very rare. One game, taking place durring the middle years, saw the virtual extermination of several hobgoblin tribes at the hands of humans with early muskets. Later games have black powder weapons as a somewhat common occurance.
 

BiggusGeekus

That's Latin for "cool"
shilsen said:
Or, more succinctly - physics is a house rule. Takes care of 99% of the things you mentioned.

Yes, but there is such a thing as trying to maintain verisimilitude, to say nothing of the fun of speculation.


One factor to think about is that necessity is the mother of invention. Why discover germ theory when there are enough magical healers about to at least keep disease in check, if not abolish it. Wall of Iron is a duration "instant" spell, so less pressure to work on refinement techniques. Fire magic probably makes gunpowder dangerous to use depending on how you envision them interacting. If printing presses can't produce magical writings, then the literate spellcasters would still need scribes and the need for movable type diminishes. And all of this doesn't even take into consideration that anyone with an above average INT or WIS would be inclined to pursue science in favor of magic to begin with.

I mean, science is great, but you can't use it to summon nymphs a nice cup of coffee.

Because, you know, I really like coffee.
 

Blessed Kitten

First Post
You raise interesting points. Others have already addressed the problems with science and technology. So I'd like to make a point about the stagnation of societies.

I too have noticed that fantasy as a genre tends to make broad references to times millennia or "ages" ago, in which, although it may have been dominated by some great force of darkness/in a golden age of magic/untouched by evil/whatever, the basic social concepts were largely the same. Monarchical, agrarian societies with a hodgepodge of medieval, renaissance and modern sensibilities, and so forth. There is no sense of social and philosophical progress (although philosophy is not necessarily progressive, anyway).

However, this can be chalked up to the fact that in fantasy worlds metaphysics and religion are very real, carved in stone kinds things with lots of obvious empirical support. For instance, as a society it can be very difficult to move to a system of government other than feudal monarchy, if the king actually rules by divine right. And if you try to subvert that divinely mandated order, then you will be smote in a pillar of holy fire, with a very real risk of a deity showing up in person to smite you.

Major changes might be limited to changes from one thing of a type to another thing of the same type. E.g., one god might be killed and replaced by a new god, but moving to monotheism is right out.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top