Project: D&D20Modern

[Chris_Nightwing]

Hey folks, I'm hoping to get some advice, some help, some feedback on a project I've started work on. Essentially, I finally convinced enough of my D&D group to play a D20Modern game, and although it took a little getting used to the variant rules, I found the setup of classes and the subtle difference between talents and feats very pleasing. After becoming more frustrated with the exploitation possible in D&D3.5 I thought it would be good to develop a form of the D20Modern system that would allow for swords and sorcery.

So my first question is, who has done something similar, and what have they done?

As I see it, using the system directly isn't directly compatible, especially with regards to magic and other core D&D elements. It's clear that D&D classes are in general, more powerful than those of D20Modern. I've done quite a bit of thinking and designing already, but I'll follow up with all of that once I get an idea of interest and whether I'm getting myself in too deep. For now, I'd like to hear what other people think!

 

[Eonthar]

You may want to look at Grim Tales from Bad Axe Games. It is pretty much exactly what you are looking for.

 

[Spatzimaus]

So my first question is, who has done something similar, and what have they done?

Done it. I've mentioned our homebrew a few times on these boards before. We had originally developed it as a magic system for d20Modern, but later changed it to a more D&D-like setting. Works both ways.

(And as others have pointed out, it's also been done by some more "official" people as well.)

What we did was this:
> The six Basic classes are mostly unchanged, except for a few things:
1: Weapon proficiencies are done differently in our campaign. Every weapon goes into one of eight or nine large categories (Bladed, Projectile, Polearm (inc. Spears), Hafted (Axe/Hammer), Thrown, Natural, etc.). Each character gets one proficiency at character level 1, regardless of class, and every character gets Natural (which includes all touch-attack spells as well). Classes give "Novice Weapon Proficiency" at level 1-2 for the "fighter" classes and 4-5 for the non-fighters, and then each gives Martial Weapon proficiencies at later levels. (NWP gives proficiency in one category, except you can only ever get it once, so a Strong 1/Fast 1/Tough 1 doesn't get three).
Feats like Weapon Focus are for a single category and a single size (so WF(Medium Bladed) includes Longswords, Scimitars, etc.) Exotic weapons were each also reworked to require both a Martial proficiency and at least one Exotic category (Double Weapon, Heavy Weapon (bastard sword, dwarven waraxe, etc.), Entangling Weapon, Exotic Ranged, Mercurial Weapon, etc.). If you have the Martial and not the Exotic, the penalty varies depending on the exotic category; for instance, the Heavy Weapon EWP allows you to wield the weapon as if it were a size smaller, and not having the EWP simply means you don't get to do this. In other cases, the penalty might be different; if you don't have the Exotic Ranged EWP, a Hand Crossbow takes much longer to reload, but you can still fire it just fine.

2: We don't use Action Points, so a little rebalancing was needed. But if you like APs, this isn't an issue.

3: No D&D-like multiclassing penalty of any kind.

> We then added three Advanced classes: Mutant, Channeler, and Wizard. Basically, we felt any attempt to translate the core D&D mage classes directly would be doomed to failure, so we took a page from the D20modern classes and made three very generic, flexible caster classes.

Each of these classes requires only a single Feat to enter: Affinity (Innate), Affinity (Freeform), or Affinity (Ritual), respectively. These Feats give cantrip-level magic of the appropriate type.
Because of the Feat, you can't take an Advanced class at level 1. So, the class skill list of each is actually the class skill list as your original Basic class, plus a few extra magic-related skills; likewise, if these Advanced classes give bonus Feats or Talents, you can choose from your earlier class' list or from any new ones. (Example: Mutants get bonus Feats every four levels. A Strong Hero who becomes a Mutant can select either Mutant Feats (which are the [Psionic] Feats plus a couple extra) or the Strong ones.)

Mutant was basically a takeoff of 4CTF's "Hero" class; at each level, the Mutant gets a pool of points he can spend raising stats, saves, BAB, skills, Feats, etc. (which he needs since the Mutant class itself only gives Wizard-like BAB, all bad saves, etc.) Or, he can buy innate abilities: DR, natural attacks, darkvision, wings, fast healing, even spell-like abilities. CHA is the primary stat, technically, but only the spell-like abilities really depend on it, so most Mutants end up being pseudo-Fighters.

Channeler is a HP-burning freeform INT-based caster, loosely based on the Psion. Every time he casts a spell he makes a pseudo-skill check, and that determines how much the spell drains him. So, assuming he heals up between fights, a Channeler isn't limited in number of spells per day.
On the upside, he doesn't learn individual spells; at each level, he gets a few points that can be used to raise caster level in individual elements/schools or magic. (At low level, you can only keep 1-2 elements maxxed, at high level it's more like 5-6, and most people end up keeping a few partially raised instead.)
On the downside, he's mostly limited to "pure" magic; i.e., nothing horribly complex, just throwing raw elements/forces around, unless wants to make the skill check more difficult.

Wizard is actually more like the 3E Cleric in how it casts; WIS-based, spell slots, plus some swapping for "domain" spells, using a focus item for all non-cantrip spells.

All three use a more skill-based casting system, so they multiclass with each other well. I, for instance, had a Fast 1/Mutant 4/Channeler 12.

> You can also add Prestige Classes, but we never really bothered since the classes were so flexible.

> We reworked the cosmology. Each of the 10 elements comes from its own plane, and there's no other planes, period. The lowest rung is the six basic elements (Life, Death, Fire, Earth, Water, Air) in three opposed pairs; we live on the Plain of Life. The next level has three fundamental forces (Light, Force, Nexus; think balance/law/chaos), and then the top level is Time.

> We also use a somewhat different set of races, but there's no absolute need for that; mainly, we wanted each plane to have only 1-2 native races, with cross-plane traffic much more common. (A very limmited self-only plane shift is available at spell level 2) So, for playable races we've got Humans and Tabiranths (tigers) from Life, Nymphs (elves, mostly) from Water, Dwarves from Earth, Salamanders (desert-dwelling lizardmen) and Dragons (they fly, but they're more like Half-Ogre size) from Fire, Faeries/Sylphs (halflings/gnomes with wings) from Air, and Gargoyles (half-orcs with wings, a la the cartoon) from Death. There are also quite a few non-playables: the Shades (incorporeal vampires) from Death are ultra-xenophobes, Fins (dolphins) from Life and Kraelphs (sharks) from Water can't really live outside of water, the Gom-Tuu are living airships from Air, and there are four races native to "higher" planes (Djinn, Vortices, Wisps, and Travellers) that basically used to act as gods before people figured out the truth. Almost every race has an LA of at least +1, but casting classes aren't penalized by this as much as they would be in D&D. The upshot is that many races are given one Affinity Feat for free. Dragons and Salamanders get Freeform, Nymphs get Ritual, etc. This effectively skews them towards one magic class.

At some point I should post this whole thing on the board, but it's definitely NOT short.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

It sounds like you've done a really good customisation job for your campaign world. I'm thinking, perhaps a little insanely, of making a system that's a little more general. A conversion is perhaps the way to look at it.

Some of the things that I really want to include are the weapon group proficiencies you mentioned. I'd like there to be 'backgrounds' to each character that allow players to gain class skills beyond their actual class. The same thing for races - certain physical bonuses and penalties and the rest combined into the background system like the D20Modern profession system. I've been unsure as to whether 4 base classes (Combat, Skilled, Arcane, Divine) or 6 (Stats) will work best. The key balance is encouraging investment in one class with high level talents, whilst allowing archetypes such as the cleric/wizard not to suck. I like the 'magic bonus' from UA for that, a little modified, and levels of spells being bought as talents. I want class defense bonuses to avoid dependence on millions of magic items, reputation is good too although not necessarily needed. Save progressions that don't give +2 at first level (which is extremely annoying when taking multiple classes, but with fewer this might not be a problem). Lots of other things that I've seen in prestige classes, on the boards, and just jotted down as I've played the game over the years.

Am I mad ?

 

[Spatzimaus]

It sounds like you've done a really good customisation job for your campaign world.

Well, it's more that the campaign world was designed to fit the new system, not the other way around. We wanted three very generic magic classes; one prepared caster, one spontaneous caster, and one with mostly innate abilities mixed with a few spell-like abilities. From there, it was just a question of restructuring the magic system such that they were more or less balanced.

In our experience, the Wizard one ended up being underplayed. Not that it was weak or anything (it had by far the most "Nova"/"Alpha Strike" ability), but people were so tired of slot-based casting that they avoided it in favor of the other styles.

Some of the things that I really want to include are the weapon group proficiencies you mentioned.

It's not difficult to do. Tonight I can try to find the documentation on exactly how we did it, but you could just as easily use the old AD&D weapon proficiency system. This is one of the few areas where I think 3E really screwed up.

I'd like there to be 'backgrounds' to each character that allow players to gain class skills beyond their actual class. The same thing for races - certain physical bonuses and penalties and the rest combined into the background system like the D20Modern profession system.

Oh, we do that, too, but I didn't bother mentioning it since we've been having that discussion in another thread on this board within the past few days.

I've been unsure as to whether 4 base classes (Combat, Skilled, Arcane, Divine) or 6 (Stats) will work best.

I've always liked the d20Modern-style 6 stat-based Basic classes; they really encourage multiclassing, while the old archetype-split D&D classes usually skew towards staying within a single class.
The D&D classes tend to increase semi-exponentially in power, while the d20Modern ones are fairly linear. Also, the d20Modern classes only go up to level 10, so you HAVE to mix them if you don't take PrCs. But that's why we added the magic as Advanced classes.

The problem, though, is that few players take levels in things like Charismatic when they have the option of more combat-oriented stuff. But really, none of the players who tried this system took many non-magic classes; even the pure fighter-types thought Mutant was a more fun way to build a character.

Oh, and we had no Arcane/Divine split, because there was no such thing as "gods"; some people might claim their power comes from a deity, but it's just not true. In our cosmology, the Travellers (inhabitants of the Plane of Time) created most of the middle and low races, but retired from the "God" business long before the low races gained sentience. At that point some of the less reputable middle race members stepped in, called themselves "New gods", and became the pantheons of the low races until they became advanced enough to realize they were being conned. Some of the low-plane races (Tabiranths, Dragons, Kraelphs, Fins) were actually native species magically uplifted by the low races themselves.

Save progressions that don't give +2 at first level (which is extremely annoying when taking multiple classes, but with fewer this might not be a problem).

That's easy to solve. Just say that you only get the extra +2 for a single class (which is exactly what WE did). If you mix Medium saves into this, do something similar for its +1.

Am I mad ?

Possibly, but that's nothing remarkable.

I can tell you, it's a LOT of work. We make fun of D&D's idea of "caster balance", but it's definitely not an easy thing to do by hand. And it really doesn't FEEL like D&D, since the end result of our system was that there were few "pure" characters. All the PCs had at least a little magic, and everyone used weapons at least a bit.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

You might want to check out Dark Lore. It uses the base elements of D20 modern and inludes advanced/prestige classes for use in fantasy campaigns.

Also worth checking out is the Second World Sourcebook.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Okay, found the proficiency notes.

There are 8 Martial proficiency Categories:

Bladed: Straight swords (longsword), curved swords (scimitar), kamas. Purely slashing weapons only, doesn't include daggers or shortswords.
Hafted: Axes, picks, and most polearms (glaive, halberd, etc.).
Blunt: Maces, hammers, staves, and flails. They can be spiky blunt weapons (morningstar, spiked chain); the key element is that the weapon does its damage primarily by raw impact.
Piercing: Daggers, shortswords, rapiers, spears (including tridents), and lances
Projectile: Bows, crossbows, and slings. NOT gunpowder weapons.
Thrown: Darts, javelins, and grenades; if you throw any weapon designed for it (throwing daggers/axes, spears) you use this proficiency instead of its main one.
Ray: Ranged touch spells, and firearms (if allowed)
Natural: Unarmed attacks, gauntlets, natural weapons, touch attacks, or any claw/bite powers or spells

Each Category is divided into three Groups, almost entirely by size:
Light includes everything up to one size smaller than the wielder.
Medium are the ones that are the same size
Heavy are one size larger; anything above that is unusable.
Note I said "almost": double weapons are put into groups based on the size and type of each half. That is, the double-bladed sword is two longswords, and therefore is put into the same group as the longsword (Medium Bladed). The Gnome Hooked Hammer is a Small Blunt and a Small Hafted.

Generally, each time you get a martial proficiency, you gain an entire Category (like Bladed); there are exceptions (Elves' free sword proficiency ONLY applies to Medium Bladed or Medium Piercing). Feats like Weapon Focus apply to a single Group (like Medium Bladed).

"Simple" weapons are simply Light weapons in a Martial category you have proficiency with, and everyone has the Simple proficiency for free. All weapons in the Natural group are light, and so no one ever needs to spend a proficiency on that; rays are also always light (no pun intended), so unless you're using firearms, there are only 6 categories to choose from.

Every weapon has one Martial category (double weapons can have two, but it's only one for each end and they apply separately), and not having that proficiency gives a -4 penalty. Additionally, there are Exotic categories, and some weapons have multiple; lacking the EWP gives a penalty based on which EWP it is.
Double Weapon: if you don't have it, you can only attack with one end at no penalty, or try to use it as a double weapon at an additional -4.
Heavy Weapon: if you have it, the weapon is treaded as being one size smaller for proficiency purposes, and the wielder can use either size to determine the applicability of feats like Weapon Focus.
Exotic Ranged: effect varies with weapon. Without the feat, Hand crossbows take a full-round action to reload instead of a move action, Repeating Crossbows can't use full attacks, and Shurikens can only be thrown one at a time.
Entangling Weapon: With the EWP, whips, spiked chains, and kusari-gamas get their +2 bonus to disarm checks and can make trip attacks; otherwise, they don't. Nets take two rounds to fold up with the feat, 4 without, and the escape DC is 15 vs 20.
Monk Weapon: With the feat, the kama, nunchaku and siangham use a -3/-6/-9/-12 BAB progression instead of the usual -5/-10/-15/-20.
Fine Weapon (this one's for the katana, kukri, wakizashi, naginata, and daikatana): The critical modifier of these weapons is normally 19-20/x2 (except the naginata is 20/x3). With the Feat, the threat range increases by 1 (18-20/x2 or 19-20/x3). This is taken into account BEFORE keen or Improved Critical. The damages of these weapons were slightly modified; a Katana is 2d4, Wakisashi 2d3, Kukri 2d2, and so on.
Flowing Weapon (mercurials): without the EWP there's a -4 penalty to attack rolls; with the EWP, not only does that go away, the weapons get a +4 bonus to critical hit confirmation rolls (they're 20/x3 weapons).
Firearm: without the EWP you have -4 to attacks, and it takes a full-round action to reload. With the EWP, it's a standard action to reload, and the penalty goes away.

Most weapons don't include Exotic categories at all. At the extreme case, the Kusari-Gama is a large weapon with a Medium Blunt end, a Small Bladed end, and the Double Weapon and Entangling Weapon EWPs.

In the D&D version, the weapon-using classes each chose 1 category at CHARACTER level 1, and 1 category was predetermined for you at CLASS level 1 (Paladins got Bladed, Rangers got Projectile). Then, each got additional Categories as they levelled up; Fighters went 3/5/7/9, the other full-BAB classes went 5/10/15, and the Bard/Rogue/Psychic Warrior went 6/12/18. PrCs used a similar setup.

In the d20Modern version, which we added later, each class got a mix of Novice Weapon Proficiency and Martial ones. Novice acts as Martial but only counts once.
Strong: Novice 1, Martial 3,7
Fast, Tough: Novice 1, Martial 7
Dedicated: Novice 3, Martial 9
Smart, Charismatic: Novice 5
Mutant: Novice 1, Martial 7, 13, 19
Channeler: Novice 1
Wizard: none at all

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Well, working with six classes, here's what I reckon will work as a basis for a system:

Each of the six stat-based classes gets a Base Attack Bonus, Fort/Ref/Will Saves, a Defense Bonus and a Magic bonus.

Strong - Good BAB, Good Fort, Bad Refl, Bad Will, Med Defense, Bad Magic
Fast - Med BAB, Bad Fort, Good Ref, Bad Will, Good Defense, Bad Magic
Tough - Good BAB, Good Fort, Bad Ref, Bad Will, Med Defense, Bad Magic
Smart - Poor BAB, Bad Fort, Bad Ref, Good Will, Bad Defense, Good Magic
Dedicated - Med BAB, Good Fort, Bad Ref, Good Will, Med Defense, Good Magic
Charismatic - Poor BAB, Bad Fort, Bad Ref, Good Will, Bad Defense, Good Magic

BAB progressions as standard. Good saves are 1/2/2/3/3/4/4/5/5/6, bad saves 0/0/1/1/1/2/2/2/3/3. Good defense is 2/3/3/4/4/5/5/6/6/7/, med defense is 1/2/2/3/3/3/4/4/5/5/, poor is 0/1/1/1/2/2/2/3/3/3. Magic bonus is either 1 per level for good or 1/2 per level for bad.

I was tempted to include medium save progressions but thought it might make my decisions more difficult. I was also tempted to give tough all good saves. I still am. The classes will follow the standard talent/feat/talent/feat system of progression, with most abilities distilled into talent or feat trees. Spellcasting will be talent-based, all caster levels from different classes stack, you can only access level N spells with the correct talent - each of the three casting styles (wizardly, clerically, spontaeneously) in a separate talent tree. Including the feats from D20Future that allow you to take talents you've effectively missed out on (with a bit of tweaking) will get you a say, 5 Smart/5 Dedicated with caster level 10 and access to 5 levels of one type of spell, 3 of the other.

This is just a vague premise at the moment. I might consider a talent a level to account for most D&D classes getting something every level. I don't plan to recreate anything precisely though, I like to move away from the conventional. As with D20M, you get very little at first level, instead a beefed up background will provide you with the feats and weapon proficiencies you deserve, preventing the whole wizard turned fighter gaining all armour and weapons problem. It's likely that a class will provide you with *something* towards this when you first take it however.

Anyway, that's my ramblings. Thoughts?

 

[Nyaricus]

Modern D&D? d20 Historical? D&D that's not so D&Dish....

Classically Modern, a free multiple pdf file is just for you.

Cheers,
--N