Proposal: Divine Power

[JoeNotCharles]

Ok, so since I haven't read the book yet, I don't recognize most of this. Can you give a full list of stuff you think is problematic? Or do you think the "pacifist healer" build should be banned entirely like Battlerage Vigour was?

(If the "fix the proposals" proposal passes - which it will soon - this is the list of stuff that we'll have to vote on instead of just letting pass automatically. Does anyone else have anything they object to?)

 

[Tinwe]

Ok, so since I haven't read the book yet, I don't recognize most of this. Can you give a full list of stuff you think is problematic? Or do you think the "pacifist healer" build should be banned entirely like Battlerage Vigour was?

The Pacifist Healer feat is balanced. it only affects Healing Word, only adds +1d6 per tier, and has a hefty drawback. Things that I think are problematic:

Feats
Potent Restorables: Artificer feat, adds flat bonus to all healing done with healing powers. It should only add to Artificer healing powers.

Powers
Astral Seal: Stacks too high, too quickly. Adding "this power is not affected by Healer's Lore" would bring it in line with its melee cousin Recovery Strike.

Previous Material
Cincture of Vivacity (AV): As displayed above, a cleric can pre-buff a tank to double his hp with temps, as well as giving him a large bonus to defenses against the first attack.

Battle Standard of Healing (AV): This item counts as a "healing power" for the cleric, according to WotC custserv. If a DM follows that ruling, a Battle Standard does similar healing to Astral Seal in a close burst 5 each time a healing surge is used. Probably too strong, especially at low level and in conjuction with some of the stacking bonuses mentioned above.

 

[Velmont]

If I look at your healer, the guy is damned good healer, but he doesn't do anything else than that. Almost all his items are dedicated to it, as half his feat, some bonus come from daily power... As I told, I never had the chance to see a Pacifist healer, but that guy will do almost no damage.

Also, I am not sure you could get a bonus from both your holy symbol and weapon. You use either to use your powers. It's a bit of technicality, I think I would need to try to see what the character builder say about it.

Up to now, I am not sure if there is a need to fix, and anyway, before we see that kind of healer on L4W, it will takes years. I played 5 years on LEW and my character reach only level 11th in 3.5 and he was the highest level character of all LEW. So before going out in fear and put 20 house rules, I think we have time to see what WotC will do about that kind of build and see it a bit more into action.

 

[ryryguy]

It seems the point people are forgetting, is that it's not just "damn good healer" (at the cost of equipment, feats, etc.) but "damn good healer who makes it so you don't need to use surges". That is potentially disruptive.

(Though like I said before, it's not clear to me that will come to pass and I'd just let it in for now. But that is the danger.)

 

[JoeNotCharles]

The Pacifist Healer feat is balanced. it only affects Healing Word, only adds +1d6 per tier, and has a hefty drawback. Things that I think are problematic:

Feats
Potent Restorables: Artificer feat, adds flat bonus to all healing done with healing powers. It should only add to Artificer healing powers.

Powers
Astral Seal: Stacks too high, too quickly. Adding "this power is not affected by Healer's Lore" would bring it in line with its melee cousin Recovery Strike.

Ok, so at this point, AFAICT the list of stuff that has to be discussed and voted on from DP is Hero of Faith, Potent Restorables and Astral Seal. Did I miss anything? Does anyone have anything else?

Previous Material

Well, that you'll have to make a separate proposal for.

 

[ryryguy]

I think making Potent Restorables apply to Artificer powers only probably makes sense. It's an Artificer thing, right?

 

[Velmont]

Potent Restorable comes from Eberron Campaign setting. But it makes sense to apply it to only Artificer powers. After all, there is a few feat/Power/abilities that boost only divine healing powers.

And for a good healer without healing surge, don't forget that Astral Seal need to hit (let's gives an average chance of 65%, as you have +2) and after that, another person need to hit too (let's gives him another 65% of chance to hit, as you give -2 to all defences). In the end, you have 42% chance to heal. So, if you can heal 60 hp with your Astral Seal, you end to heal an average of 25 hp per round.

Now, let's compare with Commander's Strike, a Warlord power that have taken in strength with time since the number of serious melee basic attack have grown in time. Let's assume we have a swordmage with a longsword. His basic melee attack deals 2d8[2W]+8[Str]+5[Weapon enhancement]+3[Weapon Focus]+2[Iron Armband] and have a chance to hit of 55% (as there is no +2 to hit or -2 to defense here). Now, you most also add the +8[Int] from the warlord. For an average of 35 damage (and I don't even consider a possible critical, which could happen on 19-20 at that level) for an average of 20 damage. Considering the critical, considering there is character with more deadly basic attack, this warlord could do as much damage to his enemy than the cleric can heal his friend.

Now, a Tactical Warlord have more than a way to raise the damage output of a team. A well build Tactical Warlord can output as much damage as a Healer cleric can heal.

Now, I think the question is more, what is more value in a combat. 1 point of damage or 1 healed hit point? I think both as equivalent and in the end, Astral Seal seems at first sight might become a strong power, but not necessarily a broken one...

Also, Astral Seal need a Standard action, and at that level, you have 4 encounter powers, at least 6 utility, 4 daily and some magic items. You won't necessarily using it at every round. And healing damage at the start of combat is a bit useless. What the use of healing 60 damage when the most wounded person in your group have taken 20 damages... But doing 60 damages to a guy that has 5 hp left is always a good thing, as the guy will be out of action.

I'm telling that because my first reaction was the same as Tinwe. "Wow, that is broken strong!", but with after doing the maths properly and not stopping at simply at the amount the power can heal in one turn. I am a lot less impress and as I told, maybe we should wait to see it into action before creating house rules.

 

[elecgraystone]

Feats
Potent Restorables: Artificer feat, adds flat bonus to all healing done with healing powers. It should only add to Artificer healing powers.

Don't see an issue. It's two feats [multi-class + restorables]. Sounds like a fair trade.

Powers
Astral Seal: Stacks too high, too quickly. Adding "this power is not affected by Healer's Lore" would bring it in line with its melee cousin Recovery Strike.

So you want it to do LESS healing AND damage than Recovery strike? I don't get that. Recovery strike can do 2d6 + str and heal CHA + Wis. Your 'fixed' astral seal does NO damage, -2 defenses and heals Cha +2. Seems to me they were in line with each other before you got the nerf bat out.

Previous Material
Cincture of Vivacity (AV): As displayed above, a cleric can pre-buff a tank to double his hp with temps, as well as giving him a large bonus to defenses against the first attack.

*shrug* It means guessing who is going to take damage before it happens. The healer wastes a heal on the tank and he gets immobilized, entangled, falls in a pit, ect or there is a rear attack and you just tossed away a heal you could have used for someone that's actually dying. I say you want to throw the dice that ONLY the tank is going to need healed, go for it.

Battle Standard of Healing (AV): This item counts as a "healing power" for the cleric, according to WotC custserv. If a DM follows that ruling, a Battle Standard does similar healing to Astral Seal in a close burst 5 each time a healing surge is used. Probably too strong, especially at low level and in conjunction with some of the stacking bonuses mentioned above.

I say if someone spends all there feats and items on healing, they should be damn good at it. However, I'd be happy to say that the battle standard does NOT count as a healing power.

 

[Velmont]

Wow,I just took a look at Recovery strike. I forgot that one, as I have never played a Str Cleric... True, Recovery Strike seems pretty much equivalent to Astral Seal. So if one need a nerf, the other would too. And I don't think either would need one.

And the battle standard of healing only add +1 to all healing surge value use within the burst. I don't see how it can heal someone as astral seal. And anyway, an item is not a cleric power unless it is explicitly told in the description. I don't think L4W will work with what someone have told, only with official published stock from books, errata or D&DI.

 

[Tinwe]

Wow,I just took a look at Recovery strike. I forgot that one, as I have never played a Str Cleric... True, Recovery Strike seems pretty much equivalent to Astral Seal. So if one need a nerf, the other would too. And I don't think either would need one.

Thing is, Recovery Strike keys off of a melee attack, which means that it is less "good" than Astral Seal for two reasons:
1) A Str cleric will not pump both Cha and Wis, so the base healing is less.
2) A Str cleric will not focus on healing to the point of MC for heal feats and other tricks that make Astral Seal so potentially good. In particular, a Str cleric does not take the PPs that allow multiple stacking of Cha modifiers.

Furthermore, since it seems not to have gotten through to a few people: you don't depend on your Cleric doing 1d6+wis or 1d8+str to win battles. You depend on your striker doing 1d10+str+SA/HQ/Curse damage two or more times a round. The function of a leader in an optimized party is to set up the battlefield and make enemies easier to hit. The pacifist cleric does that, while maintaining extremely high levels of surgeless healing.

And the battle standard of healing only add +1 to all healing surge value use within the burst. I don't see how it can heal someone as astral seal. And anyway, an item is not a cleric power unless it is explicitly told in the description. I don't think L4W will work with what someone have told, only with official published stock from books, errata or D&DI.

No, the battle standard of healing allows everyone in the burst to heal 1 point when someone in the burst uses a surge. It's quite the difference. It doesn't gain as many bonuses as Astral Seal, but it easily heals "as much as Astral Seal" for several reasons:

1) It doesn't require hitting anything, whereas Astral Seal does
2) It heals anyone in close burst 5, whereas Astral Seal is 1/turn
3) A level 1 Cleric cleric can do 2 Healing Word/encounter as well as Healer's Mercy, which with a BSoH is a "nova heal" as everyone in close burst 5 spends a surge and then regains extra hp from the standard. Useless most of the time? Sure. I still would have loved it in the encounter Renau1g just put us through. Don't discount the use of Second Wind, either.

For what it's worth, you're correct- it doesn't count as a "cleric healing power", but it does count as "your power with the healing keyword" or "your healing power" which means that Healer's Lore and Healer's Implement don't affect it, but Healer's Brooch, Holy Healing Weapon, Gloves of the Healer and Potent Restorables all do. I don't know if you're sensing a trend here.