Proposal - Dragon Magazine 369 - Minotaur

[garyh]

I haven't had time to read the articles in depth (so I won't be voting just yet) but people should at least vote on the article the OP wanted most urgently, and the rest of the non-minotaur stuff.

Good point. I didn't have any problems with the warlord article, so YES on that.

Not to sound argumentative, but yes we do and that's precisley why you are wary about the number of people who will be unhappy.

Last I checked we had something like 4 minotaurs and 3 bugbears out of 90 approved character....

If we had some way to tell, I'd bet ten to one we'd have half less minotaurs and bugbears without the oversized stuff. It's a nigh certainty.

I think it probably also had a lot to do with being the only +2 STR/+2 CON and +2 STR/+2 DEX races available at the time, too.

Yes, I'm sure oversized played a significant part in their choice of race, but Str/Con and Str/Dex are pretty attractive for melee fighters too. When Hrav was created, Bugbears were the only Str/Dex race available. All of the minotaurs were created before PHB2, so it was either minotaur or warforged for Str/Con, and I get the feeling that warforged are an acquired taste.

People have already made my argument for me. When I created Hrav, I chose bugbear for two reasons:

1) Only available Str/Dex race, and I wanted a brutal rogue.

2) I really liked the monster pirate story we gave them in L4W.

In my view, Oversized was just what they got because they have no other racial abilitiess worth a darn (compare the MUCH inferior Predatory Eye to the half-orcs' Furious Assault, for an example just between Str/Dex races, plus all the other stuff half-orcs get).

As I've said, if bugbears end up as strong as half-orcs when they get the full treatment, I'll gladly turn in my large rapier. But if they get nerfed as bad as minotaurs, you'll have to pry my large rapier from my cold, dead, furry hands.

 

[Atanatotatos]

I think I said this a couple of times already, but although I didn't think so when we started, I now believe that oversized is a little too good at mid-high levels. Not gamebreaking, mind you, but still...
Also, I believe that the Dragon minotaur is still better than the MM one, because those racial feats may seem a bit lackluster, but actually make the Minotaur a very versatile race. The PPs are quite good, too. Id like to convert L4W Minotaurs in the Dragon version.

 

[elecgraystone]

Also, I believe that the Dragon minotaur is still better than the MM one

You are the first person that I've heard this from. From the people I've talked to, if they had to pick MM or Dragon, they'd drop all of dragon. What it boils down to is this. Lackluster! [you used a good word].

Dragon minotaur = lackluster race with lackluster feats.
MM minotaur = cool race with no feats.
Some cool is better than very being versatile but lackluster in their eyes.

Now I'll admit, this is all second hand info and/or my impression from reading both races. I don't play many of the characters the minotaur is suited for, so my experience playing one is limited.

 

[Atanatotatos]

Nope, I said that those racial feats seem lackluster. They're actually great for controlling opponents. A defender can get a lot out of those push-and-prone OAs. And think about a battlerager using an invigorating at-will as a free action when being knocked unconscious....
Oversized, although cool, is just a damage boost, and although nice, it doesn't really make up for a whole race, IMO.

 

[elecgraystone]

Nope, I said that those racial feats lackluster.

Yes you said seem and I didn't. That WAS intentional in my part. From what I'm heard and remember, lackluster seems to fit.

They're actually great for controlling opponents.

I'll take another look but I KNOW I wasn't blown over by them when i read them.

And think about a battlerager using an invigorating at-will as a free action when being knocked unconscious....

There is something awesome there? That's a temp hp gain right? So your actual hp would still be at 0 and you're still dying if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Kalidrev]

Copied from the PHB:

TEMPORARY HIT POINTS * Don’t Count toward Maximum: Temporary hit points don’t count when you compare your current hit points to your maximum hit points, when you determine whether you’re bloodied, or for other effects that depend on your current hit points.

Being unconscious/dead is an effect that is dependent on your current hit points, so that rule would seem to agree with elecgraystone's last comment.

Also, Ata, unfortunately the Minotaur racial trait Ferocity is stated as such: "If you are reduced to 0 hit points, you can make a melee basic attack before falling unconscious."

This would mean that you couldn't use any invigorating attacks unless it specifically stated that it could be used as a melee basic attack or until the Minotaur reached level 11 and chose the Brutal Ferocity feat (which lets you use an at-will attack when using Ferocity). Unfortunately, again, those temp HP wouldn't add to your actual HP count, so you will still be unconcious/dying.

 

[elecgraystone]

Thanks Kalidrev! I was pretty sure that's how the rule went, but I don't have access to the PHB.

 

[Kalidrev]

Even without the above being able to work I very much do want this proposal to pass. I would LOVE to be able to create a Minotaur fighter with all of the Minotaurs Gore feats (particularly the Opportunity Gore feat!!). I don't think it very likely that anyone could miss with an opportunity attack with that combo. Combat Superiority (Wis mod to OA attack rolls) + Opportunity Gore feat + Goring Charge (Strength + 4 vs AC, damage and prone on hit) = Strength Mod (likely to be +4 or +5) + 4 (power bonus) + Wisdom Mod (likely a +2 or +3) = +10 - +12 vs AC at lvl 1.... YES PLEASE! ^_^

 

[elecgraystone]

Well, it's not that awesome actually. It's a total +1 over a normal non-magic longsword basic.

Goring Charge = Strength + 4 vs AC, d6 dam.
Longsword = Strength + 3 vs AC, d8 dam.

Ok looked over heroic minotaur feat and I'm still less than impressed. If you take goring shove, greathorn AND Opportunity Gore, you do the same thing you can do with a longsword with a 1 square push. Or to put it another way, you just got Tide of Iron with a longsword.

Paragon feats Beast Within, Brutal Ferocity aren't bad. Bloody gore is unimpressive, recharging a power that is at best equal to your at will attacks.

Epic is uncanny scent, and it's pretty good.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

Ok, this thread is now officially about the minotaur article alone. To vote on Diabolic Stratagem, go here. To vote on everything else, go here.

EDIT: oops, apparently the L4W Facilitator account can't actually edit threads. Can Tomalak or covaithe edit the thread title and/or the first post?