Proposal - EN World downtime does not count towards 48 h proposal deadlines

[Dunamin]

How about we combine #1 and #2 then? Have it default to to 24 hours and if any judges think a full 48 hours is needed, all they have to do is post that and it gets extended to 48 hours.

That way we can move things along if the votes are already in or the debate is over but if things aren't resolved yet we can have the extra time. Sound fair?

It doesn't really seem necessary to expand with a clause like this. If you allow another 24 hours after the first 24 hours, then essentially its just 48 hours.

What's the big deal about one more day of patience? Most PBP combat rounds don't move that fast.

 

[elecgraystone]

It doesn't really seem necessary to expand with a clause like this. If you allow another 24 hours after the first 24 hours, then essentially its just 48 hours.

What's the big deal about one more day of patience? Most PBP combat rounds don't move that fast.

I suggested the 24 because of cases where it's going to pass, like when you have 5 yes and 0 no's. Why make someone wait an extra 24hr if you don't have to?

As for why worry about another 24hrs? If someone is waiting to level up their character, everything adds up. If it passes then I have to fix my sheet, then it has to be approved, then hopefully the adventure I wanted to get in hasn't already filled up or started while I waited. I'm not going to ask someone to let me into their adventure when I don't know when I'm even going to send my sheet in for advancement.

I guess I'd have to ask, what's the big deal with cutting a day off the waiting time if the proposal is a forgone conclusion? Is patience better than timeliness?

 

[Dunamin]

I guess I'd have to ask, what's the big deal with cutting a day off the waiting time if the proposal is a forgone conclusion? Is patience better than timeliness?

In general, yes. These rules apply for the entire L4W community, not just the single player that feels the need to rush.

The proposal that brought this issue up was not a forgone conclusion, but rather one where a single vote mattered. It is exactly in cases like this that patience is required, and the whole premise for why I made this suggestion.

If you want to go on an adventure and its about to fill up, go on it. Your PC doesn't have to be approved to start adventuring, and if there's a problem with your sheet it can easily be adressed long long before it ever becomes relevant for the DM to award XP. In fact, the DM may opt to award XP only once level-ups become relevant - that's usually months after adventure start.

 

[elecgraystone]

The proposal that brought this issue up was not a forgone conclusion, but rather one where a single vote mattered. It is exactly in cases like this that patience is required, and the whole premise for why I made this suggestion.

I never claimed that my proposal was forgone conclusion. However, I've seen proposals that were and it seems unfair to add extra time to them.

If you want to go on an adventure and its about to fill up, go on it. Your PC doesn't have to be approved to start adventuring, and if there's a problem with your sheet it can easily be addressed long long before it ever becomes relevant for the DM to award XP. In fact, the DM may opt to award XP only once level-ups become relevant - that's usually months after adventure start.

It'd be ok to enter a game with an unofficial weapon, armor or ability? That becomes relevant from the start. If I don't have the unofficial weapon, armor or ability, I'm at a disadvantage in the game and the encounters are that much harder. Then when it becomes official, does the item/power mysteriously appear? Or do I wait months for the adventure to end? Do I go though what may be a whole level without the item/power?

Case in point, I just went to third and lets say I want a 3rd level power from a new source. When does it show up if i enter a game without it? Or if I wanted to buy a new item with my money during level up break. When does it show up in the adventure?

 

[Dunamin]

Case in point, I just went to third and lets say I want a 3rd level power from a new source. When does it show up if i enter a game without it? Or if I wanted to buy a new item with my money during level up break. When does it show up in the adventure?

As noted in the charter, unapproved characters are at the DM's discretion.

If your PC is unapproved because he/she has the At-Will power of Instant Encounter Win or the +7 Sword of Awesome, your DM probably wouldn't allow you entry in the adventure in the first place. If your PC is unapproved because he/she has a power or item from a new WotC source that might be approved soon, its pretty simple to substitute a power or item of the same level and category until the matter is resolved. If its a "forgone conclusion" (5 votes for, 0 votes against), no DM would bother.

These - still theoretical - rare issues are easily worked out together with DM and judge. Given retraining rules and overhauls mid-adventure, there's no reason to suggest a player would be punished by eliminating a class option with no replacement.

Case in point, a PC in the Closed Eye has already changed powers and abilities extensively, and we're still underway in the adventure. He changed to illusion powers with an overhaul between encounters, before the overhaul rules was passed and the game survived just fine. If the proposal had not passed, it would have been a simple matter to reverse any changes.

To reiterate, the rules of the game apply to the entirety of the L4W community, not just a hypothetical case of a player that needs the right proposal passed at the right time for the right adventure. So when we make changes to the rules I'd rather we make sure we do it right rather than rush, since the result has impact well beyond the original proposer.

 

[elecgraystone]

As noted in the charter, unapproved characters are at the DM's discretion.

Well I KNEW unapproved characters are at the DM's discretion. My question was to how far that discretion would go. Honestly, these are the kind of things I like taking care of before I start an adventure.

These - still theoretical - rare issues are easily worked out together with DM and judge. Given retraining rules and overhauls mid-adventure, there's no reason to suggest a player would be punished by eliminating a class option with no replacement.

Since I haven't had these issues here myself or been in a party here with them I didn't know. That's why I asked the question.

Case in point, a PC in the Closed Eye has already changed powers and abilities extensively, and we're still underway in the adventure. He changed to illusion powers with an overhaul between encounters, before the overhaul rules was passed and the game survived just fine. If the proposal had not passed, it would have been a simple matter to reverse any changes.

Ok, that's good to know. That was my worry, because a character could end up being taken in a totally different direction because of a proposal.

To reiterate, the rules of the game apply to the entirety of the L4W community, not just a hypothetical case of a player that needs the right proposal passed at the right time for the right adventure.

Ok, lets be fair here, that was NEVER my point. As said above, a character could change radically do to a proposal and if that change would be an issue in him getting into a game he was interested I thought it should be resolved in a timely manner. I still do.

So when we make changes to the rules I'd rather we make sure we do it right rather than rush, since the result has impact well beyond the original proposer.

See, I still fail to see how my suggestion is rushing anything. It just makes settled issues pass quicker and contentious one can still go the full 48hr by a single judge asking for more time. It seem a win/win for both timeliness and patience/getting it right.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

The point is, you can tell that a settled issue is going to pass so you can safely make your character using those rules knowing it will be approved once the issue passes. Shaving 24 hours off the wait time in this case doesn't actually change anything about your process of making a character, for practical purposes.

 

[elecgraystone]

Shaving 24 hours off the wait time in this case doesn't actually change anything about your process of making a character, for practical purposes.

Personally I made up 2 versions of my character on paper, one with the proposal and one without. Once my proposal passed, it was just the time it took to input the changes onto the sheet then e-mail. So a 24hr extra wait would have translated into an extra 23hours and 40 min of waiting for my character to be approved. So the extra 24hrs in translated almost 100% into extra waiting, and IMO needless waiting.

If you guys want to just make it 48hrs, fine. I just don't understand your recalcitrance to a shorter time for proposals that are GOING to pass. I see no benefit in the thread lingering an extra 24hrs after all the votes are in.

 

[covaithe]

Elecgraystone, with respect, I think you're not exactly the norm, here. I think most of us are content with a bit longer wait for new material.

I still don't know what, if anything, has actually been proposed in this thread. We can talk all we want about what to do if the server goes down at time A and doesn't come back up until time B, but unless we have a way to actually identify times A and B, I'm not sure what we can do.

 

[Dunamin]

Elecgraystone, with respect, I think you're not exactly the norm, here. I think most of us are content with a bit longer wait for new material.

I still don't know what, if anything, has actually been proposed in this thread. We can talk all we want about what to do if the server goes down at time A and doesn't come back up until time B, but unless we have a way to actually identify times A and B, I'm not sure what we can do.

I concur.

The original proposal remains outlined in the original post, though if need be I would also support Joe's first and last 2 suggestions (given in his initial post of this thread).

I don't know of a way we can identify when the server is back up, so perhaps a more "fluid" option like this would be a possibility:

"In case of a site crash or similar long-term inaccessibility to L4W, the deadline is extended to the end of the day following the one where access it restored (using EN World's GMT +2)."

The community is big enough that there's always someone checking in every day (judges in particular ), so we can tell what day its back up. In practice, you would always have more than a day to react but no more than two.
How's that for a compromise?

But in addition, I also favor this one as a supplement:

YES on allowing the judges to vote on proposals by emailing l4w.judges, even if the server is accessible.

YES