Pros and Cons

[Michael Silverbane]

Does anybody hate it and feels that 3e is better?

I prefer 3e to 4e (though I also play 4e, and don't hate it by any stretch of the imagination)

Much in 4e has been abstracted to a great degree (healing and healing surges, which you have asked about already, are one of those things).

Most healing is dealt with through the use of healing surges. Each character gains a number of healing surges (dependent primarily on their class role and their Constitution modifier). A healing surge used restores 1/4 of your character's hit points. During combat, healing surges are limited in use. Outside of combat, they are essentially unlimited. During a "Short Rest" a character can spend healing surges to regain hit points. During a "Long Rest" all healing surges and lost hit points are restored. This is a huge abstraction, moreso than I would prefer.

Likewise, most non-combat (or, perhaps, non-adventuring might be a better term) abilities have been removed from the game completely. For instance, there is no mechanic by which to determine a character's skill in a non-combat / non-adventuring task like basket weaving (or whatever). Is my character's ability to weave a basket going to be important to the adventure at hand? Probably not. Would it be nice if there were a mechanic present to represent my character's basket weaving ability? Sure.

There are some other, similar issues, but they mostly fall into one of these two categories, things that have been (IMO) over-abstracted and things that have been removed for adventurey-ness

and.... why are mini's necessary?

Tactical position and movement are very important to combat in 4e, so miniatures (or some other method by which you can accurately display position) is necessary to get the most out of the combat portion of the game.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I do feel that 3e is getting old and crusty. Not very excited about playing. Mostly because everything takes so long to get through.

I will say, despite 4e's vaunted "making the DM's life easier" capability, in general, I find the feature to be vastly overrated. Things do take a long time, still. 4e is noticeably smoother, but that doesn't necessarily mean faster, and it still has parts where the road gets bumpy. I'd say 3e has bumpiness throughout it, like a gravel road. I'd say 4e has a smooth valley in between gigantic peaks of sheer, face-bludgeoning granite.

Still, if you're tired of 3e, 4e probably makes a lot of sense for you. Just make sure the players are all on board, too, and stick to that well-traveled valley. Assuming no players are invested in the parts of D&D that 4e just doesn't do very well, you should have a smooth ride, and a lot of fun.

Give the free game a whirl, and let us know how it turns out. It sounds a lot like you're ready to jump on the 4e bandwagon, so you definately owe it to yourself to give it a fair try, and to see if your players might feel the same way you do.

 

[DeadlyUematsu]

As someone who likes 4E, I am rather critical of its failings.

First, PROS:
1. It's simple to create your own material.
2. The technical support is great.
3. Freeform roleplaying with the occasional dice roll takes up the majority of non-combat play.
4. Artifacts are better.
5. Monster roles are interesting.
6. It is lower-powered than 3E and every prior edition.
7. The tiers.

Now, CONS:
1. Outside combat and adventuring, the rules do not help adjuciate the workings of the game world at all (see above comment about free-form roleplaying, you will be doing that a lot).
2. The use of dissociated mechanics and exception-based mechanics is not a great design choice.
3. Skill challenges do not work.
4. Rituals are pointless.
5. The economy is nonsense.
6. Classes are not balanced and class roles are pointless.
7. Grind is likely if you use monsters of higher level than the party (especially higher level elites and solos).
8. 30 levels (I would have done 12, make each tier four levels, and called it wraps).

 

[Jack99]

Now, CONS:
1. Outside combat and adventuring, the rules do not help adjuciate the workings of the game world at all (see above comment about free-form roleplaying, you will be doing that a lot).
2. The use of dissociated mechanics and exception-based mechanics is not a great design choice.
3. Skill challenges do not work.
4. Rituals are pointless.
5. The economy is nonsense.
6. Classes are not balanced and class roles are pointless.
7. Grind is likely if you use monsters of higher level than the party (especially higher level elites and solos).
8. 30 levels (I would have done 12, make each tier four levels, and called it wraps).

Lots of those CON's that I do not understand, but I guess we can chalk them up to personal opinions/preferences and lack of familiarity with the system. But...

6. Classes are not balanced and class roles are pointless.

is completely untrue. So I would like to know what you base this comment on?

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Lots of those CON's that I do not understand, but I guess we can chalk them up to personal opinions/preferences and lack of familiarity with the system. But...

How do you know that poster has a lack of familiarity with the system?

[point 6 - Classes are not balanced and class roles are pointless.] is completely untrue. So I would like to know what you base this comment on?

I don't know. I can understand this from the perspective that different classes have different damage outputs - strikers deal more damage than defenders who most probably deal more damage than leaders. In terms of "effect on the enemy" the classes are quite different. If you don't like this aspect, I suppose you could title the classes being not balanced. And the flow on from this attitude could be that the strict class roles are pointless. I don't exactly agree with this but I can understand it.

I think in this thread, it's most probably best not to debate or argue upon other posters opinions or ideas. The OP seems quite enthusiastic and positive towards a change and so will most likely deal with dross posts appropriately. No point derailing the thread.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Jack99]

How do you know that poster has a lack of familiarity with the system?

I don't know. I can understand this from the perspective that different classes have different damage outputs - strikers deal more damage than defenders who most probably deal more damage than leaders. In terms of "effect on the enemy" the classes are quite different. If you don't like this aspect, I suppose you could title the classes being not balanced. And the flow on from this attitude could be that the strict class roles are pointless. I don't exactly agree with this but I can understand it.

I think in this thread, it's most probably best not to debate or argue upon other posters opinions or ideas. The OP seems quite enthusiastic and positive towards a change and so will most likely deal with dross posts appropriately. No point derailing the thread.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Your argument regarding class balance makes zero sense, but, I will withdraw my original question in order to not derail this further. We can always take it up in another thread.

Cheers

 

[AllisterH]

They aren't strictly necessary. There are many substitutes you can use instead.

Exactly...when people say minis, they don't necessarily mean "licensed miniatures" a la Warhammer.

They mean "placeholders" and for that, everything from plastic Army men to Skittles works...

 

[malkav666]

Exactly...when people say minis, they don't necessarily mean "licensed miniatures" a la Warhammer.

They mean "placeholders" and for that, everything from plastic Army men to Skittles works...

Edible Minis do not work with my group. monsters and PCs go "missing" too often.

love,

malkav

 

[Pbartender]

I've found this...

Likewise, most non-combat (or, perhaps, non-adventuring might be a better term) abilities have been removed from the game completely. For instance, there is no mechanic by which to determine a character's skill in a non-combat / non-adventuring task like basket weaving (or whatever). Is my character's ability to weave a basket going to be important to the adventure at hand? Probably not. Would it be nice if there were a mechanic present to represent my character's basket weaving ability? Sure.

...to be a pro, rather than a con, because in my group, it tends to encourage this...

3. Freeform roleplaying with the occasional dice roll takes up the majority of non-combat play.

Which I like.

Something else that I don't think has been mentioned yet...

For me and my group, improvising actions that fall outside the rules is at least as easy, if not easier, than 3E. The conversion of 3E Saves into Defensive stats has helped a lot. Not so much because the numbers or process are any more intuitive, but because all the numbers and stats you need to reference will be right there in the opponent's stat block. In other words, there's much less need to go looking up the DC in the book for using skill checks against enemies, all you need to do is choose the appropriate skill or ability for the "attack" and the appropriate defense -- Fortitude, Reflex or Will.

So, should a player decide he wants to haggle a little bit for an item he's buying, I can say, "Sure, use Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate or Sense Motive. Your target is the merchant's Will Defense. Success gets you a discount. Failure raises the price. I'll let you try up to five times and any price changes are cumulative."

Likewise, in combat, if someone wants to do something that lies outside the normal bounds of powers and actions, it's fairly easy to adjudicate on the fly. If a character decides to throw a cream pie at an enemy, I can rule, "Alright... Take a Standard Action to make a Dexterity attack versus his Reflex Defense. If you hit him, he'll be Dazed until the end of your next turn, while he wipes the pie off his face. Also, if you hit him and you want to, I'll let you take a Minor Action to taunt him by making a Charisma attack versus his Will Defense. If that hits, he'll also be marked by you until the end of your next turn."

 

[Piratecat]

I think in this thread, it's most probably best not to debate or argue upon other posters opinions or ideas. The OP seems quite enthusiastic and positive towards a change and so will most likely deal with dross posts appropriately. No point derailing the thread.

Thank you! XP for you.