Psion & picking energy type of attack

[Sir ThornCrest]

the book says the Psion for most of the kenetic attacks and like powers under general psion/wilder can at the time of manifesting chose the energy type of a weapon..cold, acid fire, sonic or electric.....another DM is telling me when the character is created he must declare his element, so that when he choses an energy attack they will all be the same energy type?

Do any of you play this way? I never even looked at it like that, so I am now concidering the "energy declaration distinction" route.

Thorncrest

 

[Piratecat]

I use "choose one energy type when choosing the power" as a house rule; it helps balance things a little more accurately.

 

[KarinsDad]

another DM is telling me when the character is created he must declare his element, so that when he choses an energy attack they will all be the same energy type?

Do any of you play this way? I never even looked at it like that, so I am now concidering the "energy declaration distinction" route.

No, that's a house rule.

Every single one of those powers start out with the phrase:

"Upon manifesting this power, you choose"

We currently have two psions in our campaign, one of whom is a kineticist. He probably wouldn't be a kineticist in a campaign like this. I know I wouldn't be (and I play the other psion in the group).

 

[Chroma]

We currently have two psions in our campaign, one of whom is a kineticist. He probably wouldn't be a kineticist in a campaign like this. I know I wouldn't be (and I play the other psion in the group).

The most "power-gamer" player in our campaign plays a kineticist and even he thought being able to switch to any energy type at whim was too powerful, it certainly hasn't limited the character's effectiveness relative to the other characters.

We've thought about having the character pick an energy "specialization" and then allowing other energies for a PP cost, but it hasn't come up yet as the fire genasi psion likes playing with fire... *laugh*

And a question for you KarinsDad, do you find the kineticist swapping to sonic energy to blast through any non-force barrier at times since it ignores hardness?

 

[Mahali]

The most "power-gamer" player in our campaign plays a kineticist and even he thought being able to switch to any energy type at whim was too powerful, it certainly hasn't limited the character's effectiveness relative to the other characters.

And yet the rules allow just that. I've never seen it as too powerful and neither has anyone I play with. If the target has a high saving throw you choose an energy type that makes the safe tougher, otherwise you go for more dmg.

 

[KarinsDad]

The most "power-gamer" player in our campaign plays a kineticist and even he thought being able to switch to any energy type at whim was too powerful, it certainly hasn't limited the character's effectiveness relative to the other characters.

That's probably because he did not sit down and do the math.

And a question for you KarinsDad, do you find the kineticist swapping to sonic energy to blast through any non-force barrier at times since it ignores hardness?

Yes, that is the rule. But, it has not yet happened in our game. Probably because the Kineticist is Fighter 1 / Psion 2 and would do 2D6-2 max damage. And although my PC is Psion 3 and also has Energy Ray with 3D6-3 damage max, the situation has just not come up yet. With those power levels, might as well let a Fighter bash down a door.

But, I don't see the problem when compared to other aspects of the game. Even for the kineticist at 2 PP per 5 points of damage to a barrier, that's a LOT of power just to get through barriers (on average).

Good Wooden Door: 6 PP
Strong Wooden Door: 8 PP
Iron Door: 24 PP
1 foot Masonry Wall: 36 PP
3 foot Hewn Stone: 216 PP

You would have to be about 15th level with great Int and burn up most of your PP for the day, and it would take 15 rounds, to get throught the Hewn Stone wall (a kalashtar could do it at 14th level, but average 0 PP left). A 1st level Fighter with great Str and a great club could get through the same Hewn Stone wall in about 139 rounds.

A 15th level Fighter (same level as the psion) with Power Attack (but without other magic and without weapon specialization), great Str, and a non-magical great club could get throught the Hewn Stone wall in about 5 rounds.

That same 15th level psion could Disintegrate that same Hewn Stone wall (or even a lot thicker wall) for 11 PP.

Like I said, I do not see the balance problem here. A Psion limited to Fire Damage (4.5 per die, half damage against objects plus uses hardness) would require:

Good Wooden Door: 9 PP (+2 PP per additional attempt)
Strong Wooden Door: 11 PP (+2 PP per additional attempt)
Iron Door: 31 PP (+5 PP per additional attempt)
1 foot Masonry Wall: 44 PP (+4 PP per additional attempt)
3 foot Hewn Stone: 244 PP (+4 PP per additional attempt)

So yes, it costs him more, but this would be a VERY inefficient way for any psion to get through a barrier.


In our previous group, the Fighter and Barbarian both had Power Attack.

So, they could bust through most non-magical barriers (and many magical barriers) in a matter of rounds. Why bother to trap the door when the fighter types can go through the wall (which they did do on rare occasion when they thought a door was trapped)?

Plus, it's not as if sonic damage is silent. You break through the vault in the city, someone is going to hear it.

I do not see this as a problem.


The issue with Psions is that they have so few powers that most players of psions tend to take at least some versatile powers (like Energy Ray). For example, at first level, you get 3 powers (1 if you are a Wilder). That could equate to one offensive, one defensive, and one miscellaneous.

To sit there and declare that Energy powers are too versatile for a game is a bit harsh IMO. The only thing they really do is allow you to switch between different attacks when your opponent has Energy Resistances at mid to high level, but of course, how would you KNOW which energy a given monster is resistant to (Knowledge: Dungeoneering or Knowledge: Planes perhaps). Mostly, it would be a crap shoot.


And with this house rule, how many psions are going to pick Sonic as their focus? Answer: zero. Very few would pick Lightning (and then only for RPing reasons).

 

[Piratecat]

Man, I love the image of a psion who just blasts through doors. Talk about stylish!

 

[Taluron]

the book says the Psion for most of the kenetic attacks and like powers under general psion/wilder can at the time of manifesting chose the energy type of a weapon..cold, acid fire, sonic or electric.....
Thorncrest

BTW, acid cannot be choosen for the Energy <whatever> powers.

All of the acid powers are seperate creation type powers.

And just FYI, probably the reason some think this is that in the build-up to XPH release stuff in Dragon, the mag mentioned that you choose your energy type when you take kinetisist. But that wasn't in the final book. And it only mentioned it for the kinetisist.

 

[Thanee]

The issue with Psions is that they have so few powers ...

If you want to know 'few', you should play a Sorcerer once...

Even less than what a Psion gets (discounting the neglectable 0th level spells, except for, well, Detect Magic) and a lot more to choose from. And no versatile energy spells or X-in-1 spells. Ouch!

It's still a hard choice for a Psion to choose the powers for sure... but not even close to what a Sorcerer has to go through.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

If you want to know 'few', you should play a Sorcerer once...

Even less than what a Psion gets (discounting the neglectable 0th level spells, except for, well, Detect Magic) and a lot more to choose from. And no versatile energy spells or X-in-1 spells. Ouch!

It's still a hard choice for a Psion to choose the powers for sure... but not even close to what a Sorcerer has to go through.

You forget that Psions get Detect Psionics as a first level spell. Sorcerers get Detect Magic as a 0th level spell. Psions lost their 0th level powers and those that survived are now 1st level powers. If you want any of those, you have to give up slots.

Sorcerers can also replace lower level spells that were useful at low level, but not useful at high, with other spells (e.g. Sleep is great at low level, but would be quickly replaced later on). Psions can do that as well, but they have to take the Psychic Reformation power and burn through XP to do it.

Here is a comparison including Sorcerer 0th, not including Sorcerer 0th, and Psions:

01 06 02 03
02 07 02 05
03 08 03 07
04 10 04 09
05 12 06 11
06 14 07 13
07 17 10 15
08 19 11 17
09 22 14 19
10 24 15 21
11 28 19 22
12 29 20 24
13 32 23 25
14 33 24 27
15 36 27 28
16 37 28 30
17 39 30 31
18 40 31 33
19 42 33 34
20 43 34 36

I think the utitlity of spells like Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Mage Hand, and Message easily make up for the extra powers, especially starting at 11th level. 4th through 10th levels are the biggest delta, but after that, Sorcerers catch up pretty quickly (they are only 1 lower at levels 15, 17, and 19). And Sorcerers always have more actual spells, just some of them have significantly less utitilty.

Sorcerers can also cast more spells per day (assuming that the Psion is using powers above first level or augmenting first level powers most of the time).

The main advantage Psions have is that they tend to have either 2 or 4 of their highest level powers available at any given time whereas Sorcerers have 1 or 2 of their highest level spell available.

All in all, both classes have few powers/spells to choose from.