Psion power balance questions

[Zimbel]

I have started to play a Psion in one of the games I'm in (LV 4, Kineticist for those who care). My general impression of the class is that it is like a 3.0 Sorcerer, using a point-based system, with a different spell list with somewhat more flexible spells.

One of the problems I had with playing a 3.0 Sorcerer was that there were several spells that were overpowered. By overpowered, I mean that there was a significant difference in the power of the character whether I used that spell or another one of the same level. The worst of the bunch was Time Stop, which we patched multiple times, and eventually banned from our game.

By now, I figure that some of you have gotten quite a bit of play time with the XPH (or the 3.5 SRD Psionics) rules. I would appreciate it if you'd help me detect the more problematic effects. Here are my guesses:

These look Very strong (e.g. Time Stop):
Temporal Aceleration - This s a weakened Time Stop, as a LV 6 spell. Augmented once, it seems nearly the same power as the 3.5 Time Stop. Unfortuantely, it can be augmented more than once.
Metamorphisis - This seems to be a strong, personal version of Polymorph. The problem is that Metamorphic Transfer allows you to evade an important restriction. (of course, one could argue that this is a problem with the feat, not the spell).
Metamorphisis, Greater - This is Shapechange, with an additional benefit or two, and a small XP cost.
Fission - One wishes that (3.0) Haste were so good - the two negative levels for one body is pretty minor compared to doubling your actions, your HP (in the short term), etc.
Timeless Body - It would seem that this would make it difficult to hurt a Psion, barring continual damage.

These just look strong (e.g. 3.0 Haste):
Empathic Transfer, Hostile - This is a 3rd level version of 3.5's Harm, with a side benefit. Even worse, with augmentation, it can be a Mass Harm. The only reason I think it dosen't belong in the "Very Strong" category is that you need to have taken significant damage for a significant effect; that seems a bit difficult at low-mid levels on a d4 HD.
Schism - This appears to be an attempt at creating a balanced personal version of 3.0 Haste. I still think that often there's plenty you can do with an extra power at -6 ML.
Control Flames - This seems to be a magic missile (high effect, minimal cost) for Psions, if it concentrates more on battlefield control than direct damage.
Energy Missile - At high Augmentations, the save DCs can be very high.
Affinity Field - Seems like it could be very nice, if a bit difficult to use. As with most spell lists, there seem to be plenty of low-level powers that could be very nice to share.
Psychic Chirugery - The problem with this is if it's cast by an NPC caster or another party member, it can significantly increase the power selection of any class with Psionic powers. It also seems that its cost being linear (instead of exponential, like most psionic items) suggests that there are points at which it is more cost-effective to use this instead of gain a psionic item with simular properties.

Do you have any suggestions for addtions/removals from these lists?
Do you agree/disagree with any of the above?

 

[Enamel_32]

Temporal acceleration: You become shakened for a round at the end of the power, and its costly if augmented.
Both metamorphosis powers: they only last so long, and psions dont have good BAB or HP. Plus, with either one, you can either have only your special abilities, or the creature's. I admit it becomes ludicrously powerful at epic levels, though.
Fission: You'll burn through power points like nothing else, and if the clone dies, it really hurts.
Timeless Body: It lasts for one round, and you can't heal.
Empathic Transfer: I wouldn't want to go touch my enemy when I'm hurt, even if it heals me.

If you don't have more than one encounter per day, then you can ignore my comments about the powers taking to many power point. As for the powers I didn't list, I don't have enough experience with them to really say anything insightful, other than that it may look powerful on paper, but may have drawbacks when actually used.

 

[KarinsDad]

Time Hop is very potent, almost a save or die level of power at 5th level. Plus, it can be used to get an injured or poisoned ally off the field, etc.

Astral Construct is strong.

Psychic Reformation is borderline broken. It allows you to take all of the lower level feats and powers useful for low level survival, and then at mid-level, switch them for ones more useful for mid-level survival (and ones which allow you to qualify for a prestige class), and then at high level, switch again. The real issue with this is that you only qualify for a prestige class at the last moment and weren't stuck with less useful feats / skills / powers like other classes for many levels.

Dispel Psionics is broken.

Ego Whip is broken at high level. It is basically close to a save or die power at higher level if you use Empower Power and/or Maximize Power with it. The real problem with it is that if the first metamagicked use doesn't take out the opponent, the second one almost always will. With other save and die spells, you could save every round and not be taken out. Here, even if you save, enough Ego Whips will eventually take you out, often in one or two rounds.


1) Temporal Acceleration is strong, but not a problem. You get an extra turn. The main difference is for Astral Construct where your full round action effectively occurs immediately. And that's not much of a big deal when you consider you are paying 11 PP plus the cost of the construct.

Yes, you get a single extra turn and that's extremely helpful. However, one of them cannot adversely affect opponents. And by 11th level, a lot of casters could be doing a Quickened spell followed by a normal spell. TA is more potent than that, but not by much. Plus, you are shaken when you come out of it which is -2 to most D20 rolls, including saves.

Very strong, but not broken.

2) Metamorphis and Greater Metamorphis. I won't bother to go into those. They are ok, but not overwhelming.

3) Fission is overrated. Yes, you get a "second you". It has none of your magic items. It has none of your current spell or powers up. It is easier to hit, easier to damage, and if it dies, you lose a level. Risky. Plus, say you create the Fission on round one. On round two, you and it get to act (but it acts as a lower level). It is not until round three that any benefit can be achieved (i.e. you got two additional powers off in two rounds, just what you would have accomplished if you had not done fission). By then, your duplicate could have gotten attacked for two consecutive rounds. Very risky.

Summon Monster can be more potent than Fission if the summoned monster can cast spells, plus it doesn't harm the caster for the summoned monster to be killed.

4) Timeless Body lasts one round and costs 17 PP. Not a problem.

5) Empathic Transfer, Hostile. Nice, but again not great, mostly because the only time it is real helpful is when the psion is really on the ropes. If you use it early, you get little benefit. If you use it late, you run the risk of being knocked unconscious or killed before you get to use it. It's a juggling act to determine the optimal time to use it. And the augmented version is tricky to use effectively once combat starts because it does not differentiate between friend and foe.

6) Schism is very potent. It is like having a lot of Quickened spells. However, it is also fairly easy to get rid of (one missed compulsion save) if your opponents realize that you have it up. I think for the PP cost, Schism is the most potent power in your list. Fortunately, most psions have to use up a feat to get it.

7) I don't see a problem with Control Flames. It's concentration for one thing.

8) For Energy Missile, the save DCs are broken. It looks like a typo to me and should be one per every two levels.

9) Affinity Field. Not a problem for a 9th level power that lasts one round per level (or basically one combat).

10) Psychic Chirugery. I don't see the issue with it. Sure, you could get a lot of powers this way. But, it costs XP. A Lot of XP. A 9th level power would cost 9000 XP (dropping a character about a half level in XP), more than the 8000 XP for crafting the 200,000 GP Mirror of Life Trapping, but gaining a lot less overall power. I wouldn't let an NPC do this in a game, so you would need two psion PCs for this to start getting benefits.


There are probably other overly potent psionic powers, but I cannot think of them at the moment.

 

[Zimbel]

Temporal acceleration: You become shakened for a round at the end of the power, and its costly if augmented.

Shaken

A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.

Hrmm... I'm fine with a -2 penalty for 1 round in exchange for 1+ extra rounds of actions. Yes, augmentation can cost. On the other hand, Time Stop is a 9th level spell. In my opinion, Time Stop is broken.

Both metamorphosis powers: they only last so long, and psions dont have good BAB or HP. Plus, with either one, you can either have only your special abilities, or the creature's. I admit it becomes ludicrously powerful at epic levels, though.

Yeah, but as a Dwarf, I'm not concerned with loosing Stability for the duration I'm more concerned with the spacial aiblity usage than anything else.

Fission: You'll burn through power points like nothing else, and if the clone dies, it really hurts.

True, but if you need it badly enough to bother to use it, it seems very nice.

Timeless Body: It lasts for one round, and you can't heal.

Yes, and no. You can do something useful (like heal) on your action, if you use Schism, Fission, Quicken, or a power with a swift action for a manefesting time.

If you don't have more than one encounter per day, then you can ignore my comments about the powers taking to many power point.

Typically, we have been having a small number of encounters/day, but they are large encounters (often 1+ dozen creatures). I'd assume 10+ rounds of combat/day.

As for the powers I didn't list, I don't have enough experience with them to really say anything insightful, other than that it may look powerful on paper, but may have drawbacks when actually used.

Yep; that's why I'm asking.

 

[Enamel_32]

With temporal acceleration, it can't possibly act as a 9th level spell at lower levels, and that's why I wouldnt say it's broken. With powers, you can scale them as you go up in level. When do you get time stop? Level 17 or 18. When can you use temporal acceleration for 4 rounds? If you include the "normal" round, level 18.

 

[Zimbel]

Time Hop is very potent, almost a save or die level of power at 5th level. Plus, it can be used to get an injured or poisoned ally off the field, etc.

I'm confused on the save or die part - do you use it to seperate opponents, or do you somehow change their location such that it's much worse when they return than when they left?

Astral Construct is strong.

Agreed.

Psychic Reformation is borderline broken. It allows you to take all of the lower level feats and powers useful for low level survival, and then at mid-level, switch them for ones more useful for mid-level survival (and ones which allow you to qualify for a prestige class), and then at high level, switch again. The real issue with this is that you only qualify for a prestige class at the last moment and weren't stuck with less useful feats / skills / powers like other classes for many levels.

Interesting. I rarely even consider prestige classes, so I wasn't thinking of this.

Dispel Psionics is broken.

Why? Because you can get a high dispel check compared to Dispel Magic? My thought is that (Greater) Dispel Magic is underpowered.

Ego Whip is broken at high level. It is basically close to a save or die power at higher level if you use Empower Power and/or Maximize Power with it. The real problem with it is that if the first metamagicked use doesn't take out the opponent, the second one almost always will. With other save and die spells, you could save every round and not be taken out. Here, even if you save, enough Ego Whips will eventually take you out, often in one or two rounds.

Good points.

1) Temporal Acceleration is strong, but not a problem. You get an extra turn. The main difference is for Astral Construct where your full round action effectively occurs immediately. And that's not much of a big deal when you consider you are paying 11 PP plus the cost of the construct.

Yes, you get a single extra turn and that's extremely helpful. However, one of them cannot adversely affect opponents. And by 11th level, a lot of casters could be doing a Quickened spell followed by a normal spell. TA is more potent than that, but not by much. Plus, you are shaken when you come out of it which is -2 to most D20 rolls, including saves.

Very strong, but not broken.

I'm more worried about the 2-3x augmented version than the base version.
Also note that you can adversely affect creatures- you just can't target them. At least with Time Stop, that's a large difference.

My interpretation is that it is even stronger with quicken- for each round of apparent time, you could both use a standard manifest and a quickened/swift manifested power.

2) Metamorphis and Greater Metamorphis. I won't bother to go into those. They are ok, but not overwhelming.

I found Shapechange extremely powerful in 3.0; I'm not seeing any particular weakness in Greater Metamorphisis that would make it weaker. On the other hand, I'm unlikely to have to worry about it.

3) Fission is overrated. Yes, you get a "second you". It has none of your magic items. It has none of your current spell or powers up. It is easier to hit, easier to damage, and if it dies, you lose a level. Risky. Plus, say you create the Fission on round one. On round two, you and it get to act (but it acts as a lower level). It is not until round three that any benefit can be achieved (i.e. you got two additional powers off in two rounds, just what you would have accomplished if you had not done fission). By then, your duplicate could have gotten attacked for two consecutive rounds. Very risky.

Summon Monster can be more potent than Fission if the summoned monster can cast spells, plus it doesn't harm the caster for the summoned monster to be killed.

Ah.. I'm more concerned with combats where one side has a few rounds to prep- but you're correct that they're rarer.

5) Empathic Transfer, Hostile. Nice, but again not great, mostly because the only time it is real helpful is when the psion is really on the ropes. If you use it early, you get little benefit. If you use it late, you run the risk of being knocked unconscious or killed before you get to use it. It's a juggling act to determine the optimal time to use it. And the augmented version is tricky to use effectively once combat starts because it does not differentiate between friend and foe.

I think you're right.

6) Schism is very potent. It is like having a lot of Quickened spells. However, it is also fairly easy to get rid of (one missed compulsion save) if your opponents realize that you have it up. I think for the PP cost, Schism is the most potent power in your list. Fortunately, most psions have to use up a feat to get it.

Interesting... I thought that the manifester level cost is more significant than you seem to be indicating.

7) I don't see a problem with Control Flames. It's concentration for one thing.

Primarily, for 1 power point, under ideal conditions, you can have a reasonable effect against weak creatures (even magic-immune/ SR/PR ones) for 1 or more combats. That's very nice for only 1 power point.

8) For Energy Missile, the save DCs are broken. It looks like a typo to me and should be one per every two levels.

I agree.

9) Affinity Field. Not a problem for a 9th level power that lasts one round per level (or basically one combat).

Again, I'm more worried about using it with preparation than mid-combat.

10) Psychic Chirugery. I don't see the issue with it. Sure, you could get a lot of powers this way. But, it costs XP. A Lot of XP. A 9th level power would cost 9000 XP (dropping a character about a half level in XP), more than the 8000 XP for crafting the 200,000 GP Mirror of Life Trapping, but gaining a lot less overall power. I wouldn't let an NPC do this in a game, so you would need two psion PCs for this to start getting benefits.

On the other hand, it dosen't cost gold. And if your DM uses 3.5 XP calculation, a short -term XP cost may be a long-term benefit, and certaintely isn't a large disadvantage. It seems to me that in some cases, it may be a "cheap" way around using a feat to gain a power.

 

[KarinsDad]

Interesting... I thought that the manifester level cost is more significant than you seem to be indicating.

Wizards only get Quicken Spell for spells they have prepped.

Sorcerers do not get Quicken Spell unless they take Arcane Preparation. In that case, they only get Quicken Spell for spells they have prepped.

Psions who take Schism and use it get Quicken Power every round with no prep.

So, even Sorcerers cannot Quicken whatever they want on the fly. Psions can.

For example, you could do Entangling Ectoplasm every round against medium sized opponents and still do something else major. Or you could put up a Force Screen and still do something else major. Or Skate and something else. And, that's at seventh level.

At ninth level, you could do Concealing Amorpha, or Levitate, or Biofeedback.

Spontaneous Quicken Power is potent.


But, it's worse that that. The Quicken Power feat costs 6 extra PP every time it is used. Schism costs 7 extra PP on round one and then costs no extra PP for every power that you effectively Quicken.

So at 7th level, using the Quicken Power feat at max PP and a second power at max PP yields a total PP expenditure of:

Round 1: 14 PP
Round 2: 28 PP
Round 3: 42 PP
Round 4: 56 PP
Round 5: not enough PP to do it again

So at 7th level, using Schism for a level one power at max PP and a second power at max PP yields a total PP expenditure of:

Round 1: 7 PP
Round 2: 15 PP
Round 3: 23 PP
Round 4: 31 PP
Round 5: 39 PP
Round 6: 47 PP
Round 7: 55 PP, Schism runs out

You got 7 rounds of "Quicken Power" for one more PP than 4 rounds of the actual Quicken Power feat.

What's worse is that you can Schism and Quicken Power for a total of 3 powers per round.

Plus, Schism is a defense against compulsion powers / spells.

 

[Nail]

Fair Warning: I think Psionics are poorly balanced with respect to the core rules. Sorcerers have nothing on Psions, and are definately second-rate in comparison. That's relatively well-known here, so I'm liable to drag this thread down in flames. Sorry 'bout that, should it happen.

That said, the problem psionic powers our group have seen are:

• Astral Construct,
• Dimension Slide (as a move action),
• Ectoplasmic Cocoon (and Mass version),
• Dispelling Buffer, and
• Mind Blank, Personal

I'm sure there are others; these are the ones we've been exposed to. Mostly, fixing is simply a question of raising the power level to the appropriate one....or allowing Sor/Wiz the same kind of power (as spells, of course).

Lately, our party's psionisist has taken (given he can Psychicly Reform himself whenever he finds a better combo for his level) to casting Telekinetic Sphere around himself, then using his burrowing power feat to blast at opponents....and they can't touch him.

Other than trying to Dispel his sphere, his enemies are essentially helpless.

 

[KarinsDad]

That said, the problem psionic powers our group have seen are:

• Astral Construct,
• Dimension Slide (as a move action),
• Ectoplasmic Cocoon (and Mass version),
• Dispelling Buffer, and
• Mind Blank, Personal

Ah yes.

I forgot about the broken Ectoplasmic Cocoon.

 

[solates]

Hrmm.

Every time you use a metapsionic effect you also lose your psionic focus, which you can only regain with another concentration check and 1 round lost. A feat does shorten the time it takes to get psionicly refocused to 1 move action.

Its not until epic levels do you get access to a feat that allows you to use your psionic focus on more than one feat at a time.

This limits the psion on blowing through the opposition as it were, yes he gets one round where hes doing some major damage but then has to rebalance in the following round.

The above listed powers are not even on my list of to gets for a psion. Theres other powers that are in effect alot more "fun" and easier on gameplay issues.

Astral constructs for example are fine, if you have them pre-prepared otherwise they bog down gameplay building them.

The morphic powers I always ignore because in all likely hood if i wanted to be a shapeshifter i would have went into the shifter prestige class. Other than maybe sneaking into somewhere as an item on someone else, or spying as an animal-see limited use.

The xph really did balance out the psionic classes to a greater degree than they were and also added alot of flavor to the various classes.

Of note the various energy powers(energy bolt, burst, ray, cone) are powerful for several reasons.
1. unlike its arcane or divine counterparts the psion can pick from any of the 5 energy bases at the time of casting(arcane or divine casters have to pick up a feat for each element they want to substitute(energy substitution).
2. The actual damage and save dcs go up as the psion levels up indefinately(only very few powers have an actual cap on power expenditures).
3. The act of augmentation does not make the psion lose his psionic focus.
4. You CAN augment and use a metapsionic feat on the same power and at later levels this can get probmatic because of the shear damage involved in some of the lower level spells being used in this way. In general almost all of them start with little to no damage dice, but its dangerous when a psion can generate a burst effect maximized.

On a different note the real dangerous powers are the ones that the psion uses on himself for buffs, his armor buffs have no cap, his weapon augmentation buffs also have no cap.

In example a lvl 100 psions lvl 1 armor spell can be boosted by up to 99 power points. And it will provide a hefty 37 armor bonus(I believe--thats from memory).

Not only that but a psion can gain armor, shield, insight, and natural armor bonuses from powers.

Weapon wise a psion can either buff his natural weaponry or an actual weapon in the same manner.

On the other side(arcane and divine) the only way to get a higher armor bonus from a spell is to create an epic spell to do so(expensive in both xp and gold).

In reality its all about the setting. In the original psionic setting(athas) psionics were not an issue because of the lack of magical augmentation running around, you really had to be that tough if you did not have magical armor and weapons.

From the xph you can make a character that without gear of any sort can still kill effectively at any level, with smart power selection and power usage. Likewise if you do run psionics as a player and as a dm you need to recognize this and maybe run a more brutal type world.

TBH though psionics are fairly balanced on the whole with its counterparts, at epic levels there starts to be a gap, but at normal gameplay you will get pretty much the same powerlevel from a psion as a wizard or sorcerer. The only major difference is the psion can heal himself and others.

Anyways i would be more concerned with having a soulblade or psychic warrior in the party more than a psion, a psion is a caster, and casters are squishy

Solates