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Psychopacifist clerics

DracoSuave

First Post
I find that banning a particular feat just because some perverse player -might- try to violate some unwritten 'spirit' of that feat... in some nebulous and not even gamebreaking way... just so that player can be a dick...


...well... I don't ban feats to spite dick players. I just ban dick players.

YMMV.
 

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Prestidigitalis

First Post
How about this for an alternative?

Fluff: Pacifist Healers can't help transferring life force into their powers when using them against creatures that are close to death. This life force offsets some of the damage that would otherwise occur.

Minions, by definition, hold tenuously to life. When damaged by the Pacifist Healer, they get to make a saving throw to survive. [Add bonus or penalty to save if you like.] The saving throw acts as a probabilistic form of damage reduction -- it is an abstraction used for convenience, just as the whole minion mechanic is.

Bloodied creatures are close to death. They take 2 less damage from the Pacifist Healer. [Increase of decrease reduction, or change to "half damage" if you like.]

Non-bloodied creatures are not close to death. There is no reduction because the life force transference is not triggered.

Note: These clauses replace the stun effect. The rest of the feat remains the same.
 

tiornys

Explorer
Until I get around to that, I'm not going to allow it.
I'm not impressed by a feat that claims to make a character into a pacifist healer and simply makes him a healer that won't deal hp damage to bloodied foes without a serious cost; there's simply too much leeway to violate the (titled) spirit while following the letter, and I don't like what that says about the actual spirit of the feat.
Well, you could just modify the feat to stun the Cleric on any damage dealing, period. You'd want to modify an at-will so they could actually have two of them; I recommend removing the damage from Sacred Flame and having it give a -2 penalty to either the target's attacks or saving throws. You wouldn't be weakening the build that the feat is intended for (one that focuses on the myriad non-damaging attacks now available to the Cleric), but rather you'd just be preventing the shenanigans that annoy you.

t~
 

Turtlejay

First Post
Were I to build a Pacifist Cleric, I'd make sure a majority of my Encounter/Dailies did no damage *anyways*, so that I could use them when I wanted. Altering a second at-will to be available to such a character and extending the stunning to always is a good idea if the feat bothers you that much.

Jay
 

DracoSuave

First Post
Well, you could just modify the feat to stun the Cleric on any damage dealing, period. You'd want to modify an at-will so they could actually have two of them; I recommend removing the damage from Sacred Flame and having it give a -2 penalty to either the target's attacks or saving throws. You wouldn't be weakening the build that the feat is intended for (one that focuses on the myriad non-damaging attacks now available to the Cleric), but rather you'd just be preventing the shenanigans that annoy you.

t~

Power of Skill allows Righteous Brand to be used as a Melee Basic Attack... which then allows it to be used in a non-damaging way with Aid Other.

Is this 'buff at-will' enough for ya?
 

tiornys

Explorer
Power of Skill allows Righteous Brand to be used as a Melee Basic Attack... which then allows it to be used in a non-damaging way with Aid Other.

Is this 'buff at-will' enough for ya?
Well, yes, but I also consider it among the cheesier interpretations out there, so I hesitate to recommend it for a home game (LFR? That's another story....). However, you've reminded me that Power of Love lets you forgo the damage from Virtuous Strike to grant temp HP's to one or two allies.

However, both of those options are Strength based, and the (effective) Pacifist build is heavy Wis/Cha, so I'd be happier if, say, you allowed Power of Love to apply to Sacred Flame (which currently benefits from 0 domains).

t~
 

DracoSuave

First Post
Well, yes, but I also consider it among the cheesier interpretations out there, so I hesitate to recommend it for a home game (LFR? That's another story....). However, you've reminded me that Power of Love lets you forgo the damage from Virtuous Strike to grant temp HP's to one or two allies.

However, both of those options are Strength based, and the (effective) Pacifist build is heavy Wis/Cha, so I'd be happier if, say, you allowed Power of Love to apply to Sacred Flame (which currently benefits from 0 domains).

t~

Yes, but using a basic attack in this way is against AC 10, which, if you're level 2, even with Strength 8 (which you should not have as a Cleric anyways) means that you would connect 55% of the time. At it's absolute worst, it's still likely to hit.
 

karolusb

First Post
Are we reading the same Hippocratic Oath? What part of it indicates that a medic should not take care of his patients in times of war? Vowing to not harm patients in the practice of medicine is not the same as being opposed to violence. Not all doctors are pacifists. In fact, many doctors are probably pragmatists.

There is no paradox here.

Your overall position has been very argumentative, so forgive me a rebuttal.

[Pacifism is a perfect absolute, like a Greek Logos]
Medieval bishops were forbidden to shed blood. So instead they killed with maces. Some early Catholic sects interpreted the vow of celibacy literally, "it says I can't get married, not that I can't have sex". The Shaolin, a very militant group, involved in numerous rebellions, took strict vows against 'violence', while roaming the countryside armed to the teeth.

Long story short, the world isn't as simple black and white as we would like it to be. Religious vows are manipulated like anti-pollution laws, and have been for as long as religious vows have existed.

[D&D is about protraying a serial killer]
Police break into homes, kill suspects if they feel they need to, and sieze property (they then sometimes sell that property to fund thier operations). By your standards they are evil mercenaries. Oh wait they have a warrant, that makes them good guys right? If so couldn't your evil mercenary adventurers also get an official sounding piece of paper and go from evil to good?

This argument is way too broad, and way to fragile to hang anything on. Last time I ran a module for a pick up game the Paladin asked if he could talk his way past the Kenku, to get to the undead below in the crypt. The module made no provision for such a thing, but I loved the idea, they did a favor for the kenku and skipped two needless combat encounters. (I gave them loot and xp anyway of course). My next campaign will not involve loot.

Long story short, games vary, again the real world isn't as simple as we'd like, and the game world doesn't have to be as simple as you make it out to be. Not every killing is murder, and not every game is a pure hack and slash slaughterfest (though the current module writing is trying to prove me wrong there).

[On to the feat itself]
Now is the term pacifist unfortunate? Sure, but in the real world there are a lot of groups called pacifists that by your very strict definition are not (I think only Quakers and Therevada Buddhists might meet your approval).

Do certain around the edges examples of this feat in application not make sense? Sure. Can't you poison that same "trap", or potentially subject it to mind control? If you want the system to hurt your head you don't need this feat as an excuse.

I had not thought of the feats interaction with minions, and it bugs me. I would apply the stun any time they defeated a foe, even if it wasn't bloodied before the attack.

Lastly is it that good of a feat? At 12th level an optimized Astral seal cleric will see a noteworthy 15% increase in total healing in a standard 10 round encounter (estimated 410 vs 355). But In exchange he has to micromanage his damage, and give up the ability to use some awesome prayers. Net gain? I don't think do, especially given how much overhealing this guy is probably throwing out.

I wouldn't trade consecrated ground for this feat on any character.
 

J. R. Scherer

First Post
Page 49 of Divine Power, the same book in which this feat appears, does a pretty good job of defining D&D style pacifism. Look for the 'Peace, Not Pacifism' sidebar (and, yes, I know it says '...Not Pacifism' and the feat is called 'Pacifist Healer'--they still work well together.)

As for the feat itself, it would make more sense if it read closer to "Also, whenever you deal damage to a bloodied enemy, or kill an enemy, you are stunned until the end of your next turn." Certainly fits the intended spirit of the feat, I think.
 

Danceofmasks

First Post
I dunno ... if that happened in the same party as one of my notorious characters ...

That just means you have a prisoner to torture for information before forcing them to fatally disembowel themselves.

"Unless you have the means to take prisoners, letting them live is not merciful."
There's always wandering scavengers, or exposure, or infected wounds, or simply slowly bleeding out.
Killing during combat is usually the lesser evil.
 

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