[Ptolus] The Power Level of NPCs

[mmu1]

Here's a thought. What if he rolled every stat for every NPC or even better, what if Monte just picked the stats he wanted instead of using point buy?

Wow. What an unbalanced concept.

Is your campaign going to come to a screeching halt because a city guard has 4 more points on abilities than the PCs. Are the PCs ever going to know what an NPC stats are anyway? Does every NPC in your campaign go around with a sandwich board that has his ability scores printed on them?

What is really the problem? Up to now, I see none.

Wow. What a strawman.

I never said anything about my campaign coming to a screeching halt. I believe I said I found it surprising how high the stats of many of the NPCs were, and that I dislike playing in settings in which the PCs have less inherent ability/talent than run of the mill NPCs. (And frankly, I'm also curious whether this was an intentional design decision on Monte's part, or just a result of the way he's run the setting in his own campaign.)

At which point, some people apparently decided to start running in circles, yelling "There is no problem! Why are you saying there's a problem when there clearly isn't a problem? Ptolus is great, there can't possibly be a problem with a book I spent $120 on! Your players know what the NPC stats are? What is wrong with you?" :\

All that, despite the fact I said I liked the damn book, overall. So if anyone's making a tempest in a teapot, it's not me.

And, getting back to some of the posts that actually threatened to turn this into a discussion:

Yes, I think most players (or the ones I game with, anyway) will develop, over the course of a campaign, a very good idea of the power level of the opposition. Perhaps not to the point of being able to quote the exact stats, but over a few months of gaming, all the little things - how much damage someone did, what feats they used, what save rolls succeeded or failed, the DMs occasional slip of the tongue, etc., will add up to a fairly detailed picture.

And while a world in which the PCs can stomp anyone into the ground, and there are no challenges left, is probably not a good thing, neither is one where the PCs constantly meet someone who is better, faster, smarter, more powerful, talented, and cooler than they are. (Unless you're playing whatever that game's called that has insane hobos for PCs.) For most of the people I play with, that's just not their idea of escapist heroic fantasy.

 

[painandgreed]

What is really the problem? Up to now, I see none.

Realism*, encounter level, and style of play are the problems.

If you assume that people's stats are the same as the distribution of results for 3d6, then only 8 in 10,000 people have stats equal to or better than the average watchman. So to come up with 800 guards in the watch, you need to have at least 1,000,000 people and nobody else should have any greater stats than the watch. I'm not sure what the population of Cook's city is, or the numbers of the watch, but I suspect that it comes out statistically wonky and doesn't explain why the distribution of stats is not as most people probably expect.

They may be Warrior 2, but after you give them stats that effectivly raise all their to hit, hit points, and saves, you've effectivly raised them a level or two. It's going to throw encounters off, especialy since they are fighting NPC classes and being penalized on El anyway.

The above will especialy throw enounters off if you are expecting the PCs to be "Heroes" with a 32 point buy. If your style of play expects 32 point buy to be a person of hero status, it's hard for the PCs to be that when Jobob the watchman directing cart traffic in the street equals or outshines them.


*Some people would say verisimilitude instead of realism, however I see no point in doing so.

 

[Odhanan]

One thing I think, is that if, as a GM, you find yourself regularly bending the rules when making NPCs in order to make them better fit what you think is right, then you should seriously consider allowing the players to bend the rules in that fashion too -- because, in all likelihood, they're getting frustrated by the same issues.

Just to point out: I'd have no problem whatsoever with my players just choosing what score they have in what stat while generating their characters. I trust them, just as they trust me as a DM. Thing is, my players like to roll for their stats. It's more fun for them.

That just rules out the annoyance with NPC stats for me. I think they make sense. "If it ain't broken, don't fix it." I don't intend to.

Some people would say verisimilitude instead of realism, however I see no point in doing so.

I'd say verisimilitude indeed, because it refers to something that would seem true within the context in which it is exposed. For a game world, this means something that appears as "realistic" within the context of the game world itself.

I don't like using the word Realism because it refers to the real world. The logic between a game world and the real world can be very different. Something illogical in the real world may be perfectly logical in the game world (example: assuming people can become invisible when thinking about the security of your household in Ptolus).

Things appear to be real or unreal within a certain context. If you are looking at a fantasy setting with some sort of "realistic pseudo-medieval world" in mind, you're fooling yourself and potentially destroy your own suspension of disbelief. If however you refer to the verisimilitude of a game element within the context of the game, the believability of the game becomes much easier on you. That's one aspect of Ptolus (embracing the logic of D&D's world) I love.

 

[Crothian]

I'm sympathetic to the OP on this one. If I were a player and the GM regularly assigned attribute scores to NPCs that I couldn't achieve even after 20 levels I'd be a bit annoyed. One nice feature of 3e+ is that they really tried to do as much as possible to make it so that the players and NPCs ran by the same rules -- no super-powered NPC classes and so on.

The problem with this is the only way you know what the stats are is if you cheat and look them up.

I think though it proves that stats are not near as important as people think.

 

[D'karr]

Do you really think that those attributes were rolled for using the 4d6 method? The odds seem pretty unlikely that they'd all turn out that way.

With the great variation in stats for all NPCs across the board, do you think they are generated using Point Buy?

It's not about knowing or not-knowing. It's about being fair.

And since when does the fact that a particular NPC has X more points than your PC constitute unfairness. That NPC will only have half the wealth at your level also, is that unfair too? My point is still that a PC would not know what the NPC stats are. He shouldn't, so why does it matter what the stats are?

It's not a storm. Who said it was a storm? I said, and I quote: "I'd be a bit annoyed." and "Ptolus kicks ass."

I'm sorry I was responding to the attitude of the posts in general but quoted your post and did not make my point clear. I believe that complaining that the NPC stats are X instead of Y is a storm in a teapot. I was not attributing the "storm" to anyone in particular (you or the OP.) Sorry for the misunderstanding.

One thing I think, is that if, as a GM, you find yourself regularly bending the rules when making NPCs in order to make them better fit what you think is right, then you should seriously consider allowing the players to bend the rules in that fashion too -- because, in all likelihood, they're getting frustrated by the same issues.

For example, I was building an NPC the other day and I wanted it to wear medium armor, but the best medium armor is generally pretty inferior to the good heavy armors and good light armors -- so I looked around for an alternative in other d20 books.

In that case, being fair to the players (even though they'd never even encounter this guy I made up) and offering them the same options that I offer my NPCs would likely make the game more enjoyable for one or more of them -- who may have been contemplating the medium armor route, but eventually gave up because the cost was a bit too high.

That is an admirable position to take but like I said I don't think that the generation of NPC stats is a real problem. Sometimes the slavish devotion to "balance" displayed on some posts is counterproductive. If you as a DM don't like the fact that the stats are not generated with the point buy method you can change them. As a player you have no business even caring about how the stats were generated to begin with. YMMV

 

[tenkar]

This is why I don't like "point buy": it brings out the min-maxer in people.

If PC's were rolling their stats these high "point buy" numbers wouldn't be an issue.

 

[D'karr]

Wow. What a strawman.

Sorry you feel that way.

I never said anything about my campaign coming to a screeching halt. I believe I said I found it surprising how high the stats of many of the NPCs were, and that I dislike playing in settings in which the PCs have less inherent ability/talent than run of the mill NPCs. (And frankly, I'm also curious whether this was an intentional design decision on Monte's part, or just a result of the way he's run the setting in his own campaign.)

Okay, fair enough. I can understand the fact that you would like the PCs in your campaign to be a cut above. Curiosity about how the setting was put together is also valid. I guess my point was more directed at this comment.

my response to anyone who was running Ptolus and told me to make a "standard" 25 point buy character would probably be "You've got to be kidding."

Your response seemed 'snarky' enough that if I was the DM I would have said, "is there a problem?" Probably in as much of a 'snarky' way. Sorry if I misinterpreted the snarkiness of your comment.

However, since your PC would not know what the "power level" of the opposition is, what does it matter what their stats are?

During my reading of the Night of Dissolution there where points where I said to myself, "Wow, that Monte is a RBDM." The fact of the matter is that there are times when the chips are heavily stacked against the PCs. Does this present a real problem? Maybe. To me it signified that players should stop worrying about what is "balanced and fair" and start playing smart. Not everything in Ptolus is fair.

At which point, some people apparently decided to start running in circles, yelling "There is no problem! Why are you saying there's a problem when there clearly isn't a problem? Ptolus is great, there can't possibly be a problem with a book I spent $120 on! Your players know what the NPC stats are? What is wrong with you?" :\

Okay, so the perceived problem is/was?

• NPC stats were probably not built using point buy?

• Your PC is not as "powerful" as the NPCs?

• You perceive this to be somehow "unbalanced" or unfair?

All that, despite the fact I said I liked the damn book, overall. So if anyone's making a tempest in a teapot, it's not me.

Like I said above, I'm sorry if the comment seemed aimed at you or the other poster. My comment is directed at the attitude that if the stats for NPCs are not being generated using Point Buy then the game is somehow less fair. That attitude from players is, IMHO, a storm in a teacup.

 

[Odhanan]

And while a world in which the PCs can stomp anyone into the ground, and there are no challenges left, is probably not a good thing, neither is one where the PCs constantly meet someone who is better, faster, smarter, more powerful, talented, and cooler than they are. (Unless you're playing whatever that game's called that has insane hobos for PCs.) For most of the people I play with, that's just not their idea of escapist heroic fantasy.

That wouldn't happen under your watch now, would it?

Point is, you are the DM, so the PCs certainly won't always be outclassed by better, smarter, more powerful NPCs. So everything's safe, right?

 

[sckeener]

This is why I don't like "point buy": it brings out the min-maxer in people.

If PC's were rolling their stats these high "point buy" numbers wouldn't be an issue.

About the only reason I like point buy is for all the players to have equal points to play the game.

I guess I could have everyone roll and use the roll that was highest....admittedly that would work only until I had to add a new player.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Man, now I want to play an insane hobo in a game.