Puppet Master

[Kisanji Arael]

Pardon me while I wax philosophical

Okay, so to start out, I’m probably just going to spout some theory at you. I don’t have a lot of time tonight (and I’m going to be busy tomorrow because, well you know, it’s Nov. 4), so I’ll see what I can get out. Okay, now knowing that you’re working off of the basic Naruto premise is helpful, because it lets me know where your center of focus is located. First off, concerning Naruto, remember that all the puppets used by Kankuro were not actually made by him, but by a master. Plus, remember that every series published by Jump is incredibly overpowered. Therefore, you should ask yourself to what degree you will and won’t be following that continuum.

Now, let us consider puppetry for a moment. Even at its most basic, there are three areas that must be effectively considered – the puppeteer, the strings and the puppet. Put another way, it is the continuum between the controller, the controlling and the controlled.

Lets start with the controlled, because it’s the easiest to deal with. In any case, there are a limited number of things which can ever be controlled; I’ll be discussing the control over enemy, ally, the neutral (corpses), the tool (dolls) and the self. It is not necessarily so that the self can be controlled; this depends on the systems you, as game designer, set in place. The only advantage of controlling yourself is to push beyond your own natural limitations. However, for all the other categories, the advantage is tactical: someone else is hurt, and the controller is left unharmed. For this reason, I oppose the suggestion of a joint hit point pool; check out the artificer preview instead. You have thus far addressed corpses and dolls, and in limiting yourself such, you are confined to only a small portion of your options. Controlling your enemies is far more satisfying. . .

And then, looking at his hands, Devon realized to his horror that they were bound by tiny black threads, which ended at the other man’s fingertips.

A puppeteer should not be a mere bruiser, even if 4E seems to imply that to be the way one should approach it. He is, as you said, a controller/striker. But this is not just so: rather, the puppeteer is a controller, and should have abilities reflecting that, while the puppet is the striker. But I’ve already said that not only dolls (tools) but also allies as well should be considered. A puppeteer, then, should be able to turn anyone into a striker, like a competent bard. He should be capable of enabling others.
I dislike that all of the at-will abilities you have thus far are only tools for the dolls. Consider all the other possibilities of what a puppeteer can do.

Why is why I to strings: strings are what bind the controlled to the controller; they are the necessary link. And I, for the record, am highly against the Naruto notion of chakra strings: real string or nothing. Needles too, if you can put them in. Of course, make them easy to reattach, or really tough to cut, but still. At the surface, the two easiest things to do with something you’ve bound with string are to move it or make it stop. Consider abilities that let you keep an enemy from moving farther away once he’s been bound. That’s a controller’s ability. Consider taking control of one of your allies to give him a bonus to attack or damage. Consider strangulation (on that note: consider watching the episode of Hellsing where the butler goes badass with a couple hundred feet of piano wire). The puppet should always be a competent distraction leading the enemy away from the puppeteer; systems in place should be designed such that ignoring the puppet is what changes him from a distraction to deadly; give the puppeteer immediate interrupts that can substitute for atttacks of opportunity. At the same time, there should be some reason why the puppeteer is himself valuable. Or, put another way, would the party care if they just had the puppet: if so, then you’ve done something wrong.

One last note: have you seen Stardust? Okay, if not, what the hell are you doing here? Go out right now and rent yourself an awesome movie. But if you have, there’s something which very closely resembled puppetry in the last scene. In it, you had someone being controlled and showing very excellent swordplay. This shows that not only does the puppet have to have a skill, but the puppeteer does as well. It wouldn’t just be about putting a sword inside your puppet, like how it’s sometimes shown in Naruto. Against a skilled swordsman, a puppeteer would need to know how to get inside defenses – he would have to be competent at dueling as well. I really wish we still had the perform skill, because it would work really well for this.

Oh, and as far as abilities for the puppeteer himself go: defensive and evasive short range, hindering mid-range. I know I would never take anything except Eladrin for this class, and not just for the stat bonuses: I would Fey step the hell away whenever I got near anything. But I should never have to; because I should be able to trip them before they reach me, then pull my puppet to me and engage him in combat that way.

Okay, that's all the time I have for today. I'd love to help you out more; tell me what you want. But I don't just want to be power-balancing a bunch of powers for a doll, so keep that in mind, too.

 

[GamerRay]

Wow, that's the most thought I've seen anyone put into someone else's class. Thank you.

Here are just some initial thoughts I have:
[sblock]
-Remember that this isn't meant to be based off Naruto. I'm just taking a basic idea from it and other sources and trying to make it my own. The idea of having an array of weapons is pulled from that (compared to the other 2 where the dolls had 1 ability), but I'm not trying to do like what I've seen done with World of Warcraft classes.

-I've had mixed reactions from others about the puppet being a mechanical tool with weaponry that is still controlled by the puppeteer. As of now, I'm still settled on keeping it that way. Not only because of Naruto, but also because the Puppet Master movies, and Ogre Battle 64, got away with doing it to a small degree and I personally loved how it all worked together. But for sake of this game, I'm outfitting him with a wider array of weaponry. (note that I'm not disregarding your input there.

I respect it because you obviously are investing part of yourself in this project and I appreciate it. However, I'm still not fully convinced that having the sole focus be on the puppeteer is right. But, you are totally right about the "could we just take the puppet?" idea, and that will stick with me as I work on this).

-The strings. I see what you're saying about "real or nothing," and will certainly be thinking on that one. Perhaps a true psychic connection would be best, but the puppeteer still acts as he would with the strings. That would also add to the decision making part, as it could take a standard or minor action to reestablish control of the puppet.

-The controlled. I like what you did with me aiding allies with my abilities. A quick idea for it;
~~~~I split my control to aid an ally. I'm only able to use at-wills for my puppet, but while the link holds the ally gets +x (+y if I went the controller path). Reestablishing the full link to my puppet takes a minor action.
I rather like that, as it opens me up for more than just wielding a beat stick.

-How important should both the puppet and master be? I hadn't thought about it before, and now I'm struggling to figure it out. I don't want the puppeteer to be just a psychic controlling something fun, nor do I want the puppet to turn into the Batman villain where the person was sort of "there," while the puppet was strapped with a Tommy gun. I had originally envisioned it as a close-knit bond, perhaps due to insanity or some deep understanding (fluff and lore are on the back burner right now), to where the puppeteer relies on his puppet for damage, but still able to hold his own should the puppet be lost.

-The puppeteer is the controller, the doll is the striker. I like that idea, alot. And at this point I'm on the fence on whether they should split the control load, or if it should mostly be placed on the master. Because they are my little babies, I'm really liking my grenade idea. It's still rough, but somehow I should be able to find a way to make them evenly powered, but still unique.

Perhaps they should be a daily, but have X number of uses. But then that means that if a DM uses short dungeons, they can go nuts. But if they do a large dungeon, they may be out of steam for the climactic boss battle.[/sblock]

What do I want?
[sblock]At this point, I'm trying to fill in abilities. Of course that can't be done until I figure out a direction, can it? As I said, I'm still settled on a good chunk of my original idea for how they should work (with more emphasis on the master now, as he really should have his own importance).

-Many reactions have been that the master should be psychic. As of now, it should be assumed that control is established, essentially, telepathically (unless I can find a way to make the solid strings not hinder my allies, or be able to be cut easily).

So for his short-range defense and evasion, and mid-range control, I'd say you can safely think up abilities for those.

-Why would someone become a puppet master? Do they suffer from an insanity? Family tradition? Do they make a deal with some god to give them control (and are given a doll that is specifically tied to the controller's soul)? These are questions I've had a hard time deciding on, and input is always appreciated.

-How should HP be calculated for the 2? I'm convinced they shouldn't share a pool, but I'm not sure how to make it otherwise. The master should be squishy, but the puppet should probably fall in the range of a rogue or ranger. But is that too much?

And should the master have any healing abilities? I can't figure out what he could do, other than sacrifice his own health to do some sort of mending (1 master= 2 puppet health, or he uses a surge to heal his own value to the puppet).

-Puppet damage abilities. I can go nuts thinking up all the devices that can be made to control, but what about damage? I don't want him to go too "current" with his technology. Grenades are as far as I'm wanting to go (whirling saw blades have been suggested, but that's too much).

-Grenades. THEY DON'T FEEL RIGHT! I would love for them to be something totally unique to the class, but I feel like they're going the path of the wizard. My best idea is that they can detonate on anything behind their target, or can be grabbed and used by someone (explode on non-puppet target vs reflex?).

This, of course, would fall into the idea of good or bad, as enemies and allies could pick them up and throw them, but who knows how far they'd, if at all? And perhaps they could even be thrown a certain distance before exploding. 1d4, 1 equals detonation in the current square, 2 is adjacent square, etc. But how easily could that be broken? Or pointless?

-Master abilities. He needs them. I have some down, but if I don't use any actual strings, some will be tossed out (including my Birds on a Wire... -tear-). He should definately be able to control or get away, without being too slippery (poor user tactics or good enemy tactics should be rightly rewarded).

Also, I'm starting to see him as a psychic and illusionist (suggested on the Wizards boards), able to hide, blend in, or at a greater master inflict horrific visions on his foes. If this is too jumbled the illusionist idea can be discarded, but it does add some fun-ness to it (perhaps a paragon path?).[/sblock]

Keep the ideas coming! I love the input I get from people, both positive and critical. I truly do think over everything suggested, and people will probably notice many of their own ideas being implemented (even if slightly) into the progressing build.

 

[Kisanji Arael]

Ooh, what if one of the at-wills does nothing but change the strings from solid to insubstantial, and then other powers could be based around that (piano wire comes to mind)? Or, no, not an at-will, a class feature that functions like an at will, like the barbarian has? Or maybe something like this:

Name:
Although the puppet master's strings made of arcane energy, many of his abilities function as though the strings were substantial. As a [this space intentionally left blank] action, the strings shift from being insubstantial to being tangible for the purposes of another power. While they are functioning in this manner, the puppet master is incapable of controlling his puppets as normal. His movement is also limited: every square he moves away from the target counts as two for purposes of movement.

After the associated power has expired, the strings return to arcane energy as a free action.

Oh, and I think you should clarify the limitations on the puppet. How far away can he move from the puppet master (my initial thought is 15+Int or Dex; progressing at 11th and 21st)? And other stuff like that.

 

[GamerRay]

Ooooh, that's actually a sweet idea! Or even insubstantial (psychic strings) to solid, acting as sort of a "surprise!" element that enemies wouldn't expect (if the DM can ignore is semi-omniscience).

Edit: And I've been battling with the distance. I'm sold on Line of Sight being required (enemies and cover under 5 feet wont affect it), but I've gone from Mod1 + Mod2 (int + dex, probably), to a solid 10, or 10+both mods.

What do you think? I want the puppet to be "attached" to his master, so there needs to be a fair limitation.

edit: Added the ability to the OP. It's still basic right now and will take a bit of work, but it's there!

Class At-Will: [unnamed]
Free Action
With a quick wiggle of the fingers, the link between master and puppet can be seen.
Your strings turn from insubstantial to substantial, allowing you to use "String" abilities. At the end of the String ability's effect, the string return to insubstantial as a free action.

 

[Kisanji Arael]

This space reserved for a really big post. Seriously, I think I just figured out how to do this within the established bounds of 4e.

 

[Kisanji Arael]

First things first, the power versions that both of us wrote up last night for the strings won’t work because insubstantial already means something (and specifically, insubstantial things can be hurt). So I’ve tried out a very slight alteration.

Here’s what I came up with – take from it what you will.
[sblock]
♦ First, set up your dolls as daily powers. This way, you have several precedents to draw upon in terms of power (e.g. - Flaming Sphere). Plus, you don't have to deal with the weight of your doll.
♦ I’ve also come up with two sub-classes for the class (one striker and one controller) that you can use if you like the idea, and thought that in addition to any standard abilities these might provide, each puppet could have additional abilities based on the puppeteer’s focus.
♦ I suggest that you set-up a separate doll keyword for the powers you intend for your dolls to use, or else there is by RAW no difference between which powers your dolls can be using and which your character can.
♦ I also wrote out a bunch of hopefully loophole free rules for class features for you. I tried to make it sound as professional as possible.
[/sblock]

Note: Oh yeah, I’m gonna be using puppeteer instead of puppet master. It jives better with me, and I don’t think a 1st level anything should be called master, unless you mean a young man under the age of 18. Oh, and this is still going to need some cleaning up in places to conform to standard format.
[sblock]
Role: Controller/Striker. While the puppeteer’s own abilities make him a dangerous controller, the puppets he uses are strikers.
Power Source: Arcane. [flavor text]
Key Abilities: Intelligence, Dexterity, Wisdom or Charisma [not both, mind you. Wisdom had already been suggested, so I wrote it in here, but insofar as I think force of will should be important for this class, and insofar as bluff and intimidate might be useful for you, I think Charisma fits better]
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, Simple Ranged, Military Ranged
Implements: Gloves [I reallly, really like this]

Hit Points at 1st level: 12 + Constitution score. [I used the rogue and warlock as a basis for comparison]
Hit Points gained/level: 5 [Again].
Healing Surges: 7 + Con modifier [the idea here being that some of the class’s powers would need to heal the dolls, and using healing surges seems to be the standard way to do that]

Trained Skills: [dunno]

Build Options: Doll Builder, String Weaver
[/sblock]

Class Features:
[sblock]
♦ Doll Powers: A puppeteer may only use powers with the doll keyword from the origin square of any actively controlled doll (see below).

♦ Doll User: A puppeteer uses arcane strings to control the dolls summoned with his daily powers. He may summon as many dolls into play as he wishes.
All dolls are considered unconscious when they are summoned. A puppeteer can control a doll for as long as he wishes, and can dismiss control as a free action. Dolls are subject to the maximum total range of your Ephemeral Strings, as noted below. However, any doll that is not actively controlled for a full turn (see below) is considered unconscious.
You can only actively control one doll for every weapon slot you possess; every doll you control reduces the number of string powers you can activate at one time by one. A doll which is reduced to 0 HP is removed from play.

♦ Ephemeral Strings: Your powers operate based on arcane strings formed from your own energy. Although they form a visible line between you and any of your effects, they are entirely illusory; they have no effect on their own, and they cannot be used, moved, damaged or affected in any way by anyone other than you. The DC to spot your strings is (15 + 1/2 class level + Dex modifier). Your strings are considered a conjuration for any effects, such as dispel magic, that intentionally try to affect them, but can be summoned again at will as a minor action (see powers: Class features, below).
Your arcane strings have a maximum range. Choose either your Dexterity or Intelligence score: the distance your string can extend is equal to this score + one half your class level. You may add the bonus of any implement used to this range. When controlling multiple string effects or dolls, your total length may not exceed your maximum range. Unless stated otherwise, you can have as one active string power for every weapon slot you possess; every active string power reduces the number of dolls you can actively control at one time.

♦ School of Puppetry: Choose one of the following schools and add its bonus to your own.

Augmentation Specialist: You have chosen to focus on the composition of your puppets, honing each into a graceful and well-tuned machine of death. Between turns, you may choose to make opportunity attacks with your doll (centered on its square) instead of yourself.

[This school would emphasize the puppets’ use as giant flying pointy things; it would be more suitable for a striker. This school would provide enhancements to encounter/utility powers that beefed up damage or put harmful effects on opponents, using the doll keyword. ]

String Theorist: You have chosen to focus on the magical composition of your arcane strings, allowing your control over the battlefield and your dolls to increase. Whenever you use a move action, your doll can move two squares or stand up.

[This school would emphasize puppets’ potential use in battlefield control and distraction. As such, it would be more suitable for controllers. Dolls would receive benefits that focused on these aspects of their design. Encounter/utility powers juiced up would be string-based abilities, such as those that controlled allies, corpses or enemies]
[/sblock]




Puppeteer Powers:
Class Features: The Puppeteer's ephemeral strings class feature functions as two distinct powers.
[sblock]
Ephemeral Strings: Attach Strings Puppeteer feature
Glowing, ghostly strings stretch out from your hands and attach to your puppet.
At will ♦ Arcane, Implement
Minor Action
Target: One doll that is not being actively controlled.
Effect: The target is no longer considered unconscious, and you actively control the doll. The doll gains a bonus to all attacks and defenses equal to your implement bonus. This power ends at the end of your next turn.
Sustain Minor: A puppeteer can sustain all uses of this power as a minor action.
Special: If you have just used another action to summon the intended target, you may activate this power as a free action.

Ephemeral Strings: As Real As They Need To Be Puppeteer feature
On their way to the caves, the puppeteer assured his companions his strings wouldn’t get in their way.
At Will ♦ Arcane, Implement
Free Action
Target: Personal
Your strings turn from illusory to substantial, allowing you to use "String" abilities. You may revert your strings to being illusory as a free action. At the end of the String ability's effect, the string return to being illusory automatically.
[/sblock]
-------------
Note on other powers:

If you like this, then you should set up about half of the at-wills as doll weaponry, and half as all-purpose string abilities, such as tripping or binding.

The same would go for encounter and utility powers. I think there should be powers that specifically give more hit points to the doll. Oh, on that note, go check out Dragon #365; it has the artificer preview, which I think is a very similar concept and will help you tremendously.

And the daily powers would just be doll summons (if there were one or two that weren’t at some higher levels, it wouldn’t kill anyone, but whatever; set up each doll with specific abilities. I was thinking a format like this:
[Doll name]
Flavor Text
# of temporary hit points (no bloodied value, no surges)
AC & defenses [set up as the characters’ AC and defenses, but with bonuses]
Basic attacks:
Special Attacks: Possibly recharging attacks, like monsters have?

And lastly, one feat that functions like a power:
[sblock]
Emergency Repairs [Puppeteer] Feat Power
Prerequisites: Must possess the Ephemeral Strings class feature.
Benefit: You gain Emergency Repairs as a daily power.
Emergency Repairs:
“Good thing I was watching that one.”
Daily ♦ Arcane, Doll, Implement, Healing
Immediate Interrupt
Target: One doll you are actively controlling
Effect: When an attack would cause one or more of the dolls you are currently controlling to be reduced to 0 HP, choose a doll and expend a healing surge. That doll is not destroyed. You do not gain the benefits of the healing surge. On your next turn, the doll gains hit points equal to your healing surge value.

Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each feat grants one more use of this power. [The special text here is why I set it up as a feat, and not as a power. However, there’s no reason that similar powers couldn’t exist in multiple places]
[/sblock]

 

[GamerRay]

Man... I'm just blown away. I will admit that I was a bit concerned with deviating from my original idea, but I LOVE the direction you went here. I will get to work on implementing the ideas tonight, but I think you've really hit on something good there.

And many of the basic abilities I thought of for equipping the doll can easily be turned into numerous, smaller dolls. Freezing, entangling, explosives, knives, glue...

I don't have much time to spend on it now, but if you come up with anything more, feel free to share!

And thanks man, you've been a huge help with this idea.

Random ideas as they come to me:
[sblock]edit: I did a bit of brainstorming about the dolls. I'm thinking of having dolls be dailies and encounters. Dailies would be dolls that would probably be completely spent and need to be rebuilt (a doll that sprays poison, has bombs, things like that), while the encounter dolls could have more basic functions like having knives, having an octopus-like ability to entangle an enemy in its limbs.

My reasoning for this is that I want the puppeteer (I've been calling him a master for sake of easy typing, but I agree with you) to be able to actually use his puppets in each encounter. I know I'm often afraid to use my dailies because I don't know if I'll regret it later. Thus I don't want the class to haul around a bunch of dolls they use in reservation, rather than really exploring what I think is the beauty of the class.

This is especially true for the striker build. Granted the master (perhaps "master can be a paragon, but for now we're stuck with it) can be equipped with some psychic-like attacks (see my Horrific Vision ability), but much of his strength would be drawn from puppet damage.

Also, what if the master were able to "draw" a puppet before a battle. He may have one of his basic striker dolls active for 5 minutes, but his speed is reduced by 2 (a rough idea, but it would let him have a chance to be a bit more diverse in strategies).

And in that same vein, perhaps he should be able to have an at-will doll. Just so that if all his enc/daily powers are blown, he can still rely on old-faithful. Fluff wise, perhaps it's the doll he originally trained with?

I'm a bit confused on a mechanic you designed. [FONT=&quot]You can only actively control one doll for every weapon slot you possess; every doll you control reduces the number of string powers you can activate at one time by one. [/FONT]As I understand it, you only have 2 weapon slots, right? And later, you say [FONT=&quot]Unless stated otherwise, you can have one active string power for every weapon slot you possess; every active string power reduces the number of dolls you can actively control at one time. For some reason I'm having a hard time figuring this one out. I can tell that its fairly limiting, I just don't know how.

[/FONT]
[/sblock]

Let me know how those ideas strike you. I'm anxious to hear any other ideas you may have had about the class.

 

[Kisanji Arael]

"You have earned the new puppy that's coming with us to the White House."

Lets address some stuff:
First off, you misspelled my name in your most recent edit of Post #1. Second off, why won’t this cough go away, and why do I post on D&D boards when I have multiple-page papers and group projects due the next day? Thirdly, concerning some points you’ve made:

♦ Should weapons be usable? I say yes, but mostly by the puppet, who can only use weapons (of the non-power variety) available to the puppet master. I plan to design some “disarming” abilities under the string category at some point, and either way, arming puppets with giant hammers is fun.
♦ Corpses as puppets: This should fall under string abilities, right?
♦ Re: post # 12:[sblock]
Why would someone become a puppet master? Leave it open; I’m serious. Anything you say limits the RP possibilities of anyone who might want to play the class. Of course, just like WotST, you can make paragon paths that show possibilities like madness, or special family skills, etc. Oh, also: I would say leave the illusionist and psychic thing from your last point alone.[/sblock]
♦ Re: post # 14: [sblock]
1. I agree with your comment on running out of dolls: there are two ways to deal with this. One can, as you suggest, make dolls available as encounter powers as well from low levels. Alternately, if you design dolls only as daily powers, then make them unsummonable after battle and available for later? (to resummon a doll after it has been unsummoned, one must take a short rest). [Note: this must be A or B; both together are game-breaking.] In either case, I dislike the idea of an at-will doll, though I would be cool with using “controlling abilities” on non-ability dolls you bring into dungeons (think about it: the Cabbage-patch kids skip though the trap-infested hallway; each one makes it about five feet farther than the last before being blown to bits; after ten minutes of traumatizing horror and the Dryad bursting into tears, the puppeteer announces to the group: “Well, please remember the path my little friends found and which stones make buzz-saws come out of the floor. Fluff and string are easier to clean up.”) (Look forward to seeing this as an at-will in my next post, once my Thursday is finally, finally over). Part of the game mechanic of playing with puppeteers should be recognizing what happens when you run out of puppets. At that point, there should still be abilities available to you (aiding allies, controlling corpses or even enemies), but you have lost your strongest asset and you have to deal with the consequences. In either case, I think higher-leveled puppeteers should have encounter-dolls available to them, but that’s why they’re higher level puppeteers.
2. Please define “draw” or restate your point.
3. The weapon slot idea was, basically, to limit the number of dolls and active, hampering string powers available to a puppeteer to the number of hands he has, unless other abilities [I was thinking specifically – feats (1), paragon paths, epic destinies and mid/high-level abilities that summon massive amounts of weak dolls] allow him to exceed this number. My wording might sound redundant, but I’m pretty sure it’s logical. As in, your basic Joe the Plumber puppeteer (God, I won’t be able to stop saying that for weeks) can control two dolls, two string abilities or one of each. This was further balanced by allowing him to sustain all of his abilities and dolls with one minor action in Ephemeral Strings. [/sblock]
♦ Good, I'm glad you agree with me on Charisma.
♦ Lastly, I think that once we clarify a bit more, we should look into at least one paragon path that lets a puppeteer "make-it-yourself" a puppet. It won't be a conventional class, but what about this has been?

Footnotes:
1: I’ve come up with three kinds of feats that raise the limit of abilities beyond two. First, one that lets him raise his number of puppets by one. Second, the inverse of the first, that raises his string abilities by one. (This separation brought to you by feats in 4e: Feats made worthless; it’s a game feature now.) Third, one that lets him learn how to “tie off” a particular string ability, separating it from his limit (in such a manner that it can still be dispelled as normal, but this might also extend the duration, or maybe not). This third variety would not suitable for heroic tier characters.

 

[GamerRay]

Responses to your last post, sblocked for sake of space.
[sblock]-Apologies on misspelling your name; it is fixed.
-Wielding weapons has been suggested. I'm still not fully sold on it, but if you can come up with a rough idea of how it would work without being too cheesy (I'm trying to avoid turning dolls into a rogue without powers), I'm willing to put it in.
-As for string and puppet abilities, ignore any powers in the original post. I haven't gone through and messed with ranges, key words, or even appropriate damages. But yes, Corpse Puppet would definitely be a string ability.
-The fluff will be left open. That was mostly by thinking out loud, because all things are required to make sense to me in a fantasy game.
- I'm interested in your "unsummonable" idea. As I picture it, it may be a bit overpowered (being able to conjure up your dailies while they still have hit points), but I'm sure it can be made in to a fair, even balance. I will definitely be thinking about that one.
The reason I don't want puppets to be a one use daily is because the puppeteer should be able to use his signature weapon. True he will also use others as his puppets, but I personally wouldn't want to feel hesitant to throw a doll out there because I may need it later and don't want to waste it.
-I figured I was using the wrong wording on "drawing strength from his puppet's damage." What I meant was that his most direct-damage abilities would come from his "puppet" keywords.
-I get the weapon slot idea. The strings on one hand are able to control 1 thing at a time (a puppet or creature). I like it, and we're definitely going with it.
-As for illusionist... maybe that should be saved for a paragon path? Giving the puppeteer his own tricks to mess with enemies... it's something that can be put on the back burner (which is getting quite crowded). Right now I think the focus is finalizing the features and whatnot (nearly there) and getting abilities ironed out. I at least have some rough ideas for the "swiss army puppet" that could just be taken apart and put into individual puppets (allowing for the player to choose between damage and control puppets, on top of string control abilities). [/sblock]


Sorry for not adding anything really new. I just got back from a D&D Delve Night and have class in the morning. But as always, thanks again for all your work and great ideas.

 

[Soulstrings33]

Kisanji Arael, Gamer Ray
hey this looks like its heading in the right direction so far. I have a few questions though. Kisanji,

♦ Should weapons be usable? I say yes, but mostly by the puppet, who can only use weapons (of the non-power variety) available to the puppet master.

I was wondering about the nature of the weapons that the puppets/puppeteer would be using. I understand that the puppeteer himself would use simple melee, ranged melee, and martial ranged, but what of the puppet. When you say "non-power variety" are you referring to magic weapons like life drinker, vicious, etc.? If so, I'm a little worried that limiting the class to weapons without magic properties could cripple its regular attacks. I understand that this class's strength is in it's tactical use of special ability puppets, but when all of that runs out, the puppeteer needs to rely on its base puppet (first, heirloom, w/e) with its at-will attacks and basic attacks, or a handful of control abilities to escape. If i'm level 20 or so and i'm still doing 15 to 20 points of damage to things with an HP pool of 400-600, i'm essentially useless other than small status ailments. I was thinking that if the idividual weapons weren't allowed to be magical, then the implement (gloves) should bestow such abilities.

Speaking of the implement (gloves)..check this out. I envision the gloves being fingerless with the base area for the fingers being fixed with rings. The gloves themselves would be ornately decorated with runes or w/e for aesthetic appeal and the rings would be of various natures (gold, silver, diff colors, etc) This would basically do two things for these created implements. One, it would differentiate it from other gloves such as a simple pair of gloves of dex or w/e. Two, for customization purposes and fluff. By this I mean that it would explain how the puppeteer can remain manually dexterous while wearing this implement.

As far as the direction of this class, I notice that the two of you are now steering toward a multi-puppet user instead of a single puppet guy. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good concept, but I think for the sake of not seeing the puppeteer die when his daily/encounter arsenal has depleted, I feel it is essential that there be a main puppet. To me, this could be balanced out by having the main puppet striker, the status ailment/control one-hitters (dailies/encounters), and the puppeteer's control abilities. The one-hitters are used tactically to distract or hinder the opponent while the striker gets set to bring the pain. The opponent, attempting to avoid being vice-gripped by these two forces, attempts to take out its source. As the enemy approaches, a strange sensation overcomes their body, and the sword hand that was raised against this manipulator turns on itself.

By the way, for those of you that were trying to figure out a way to make the puppeteer become more like his puppet or become a puppet himself, check this out.
Soul String Ritual
As an apprentice becomes a full puppeteer, the master bestows him with one final gift...
As a sign of complete mastery over puppetry, a puppet master engages in a ritual that turns himself into a puppet. The strings of his soul forge a permanent bond with his student, and bestow essential knowledge of puppet mastery. In the end, the master honors his student, by becoming his first puppet...

Granted this might end up becoming fluff for someone's campaign, but I thought I'd throw it out there to get you guys thinking.

Also, I came up with a power that I want to add as a Puppet Power

Spinal Tap Coppelia
"Now, you might feel a slight prick..."
Tempting your enemy with a false chance of victory, you bate them for ruin. While distracted, they soon find that some mistakes prove deadly.
Encounter. Melee or Ranged
Standard Action
Target: One creature.
Range: 10 squares
Attack: Dex vs. AC, FORT, REF
Special: You make one attack roll, and you hit if the roll
equals or exceeds any of the three defenses.
Hit: 3[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and ongoing 10
damage (save ends). Add an extra 1[W]
damage if the attack hits two defenses. The target is also
stunned until the end of your next turn if the attack hits all
three defenses.

This might need balancing, but essentially I was thinking of it playing out like this: The enemy is battered and bruised from the onslaught of your maniacal mannequins. Suddenly, they realize they're just at your feet. A swift cleave of their blade would see you dead. Just as they raise their sword towards a victorious kill, they are seized from behind! Limbs of a puppet entangle their arms, with pantera-like claws latching fast to their flanks. As the puppet closes in, its torso separates to reveal a spine shaped blade protruding from its center. Then, in a moment of sadistic embrace, the foe is skewered and the world fades to black....