Puzzles in 4th Edition

[Stalker0]

Reading the puzzle thread over in general got me thinking:

The classic problem with puzzles in dnd is that mental stats are far harder to roleplay correctly than physical ones. While we all can imagine how strong a hercules could be, its hard to imagine what a man with a 25 int (higher than any human who has ever lived) could accomplish.

When a dm provides his players a puzzle, he rightly wants them to take time and solve it. But the players have the valid point that if there character is far smarter than they are (and often times a super genius) then they should be able to solve the puzzle with ease.

I'm curious to know if 4e has any techniques or mechanics to try and bridge this gap.

 

[Fathead]

I solved this by offering hints to PCs with higher intelligence. It allowed me to include puzzles without simply letting them roll dice.

 

[Umbran]

I'm curious to know if 4e has any techniques or mechanics to try and bridge this gap.

One possibility is to give handicaps or hints. For example, you can give the players a puzzle, and tell them they have a fixed number of hints or questions they may ask (maybe equal to their Int or Wis modifier, perhaps).

Another possibility is to say, "This is not the puzzle your character is faced with. This is the representation of that puzzle for the players, with the character's high intelligence already worked in. The puzzle in-game is much, much harder."

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I hate puzzles

I've never understood why ANYONE likes puzzles in D&D. There's a big difference between having complicated, interesting decisions to make and having to solve riddles or pulling a bunch of switches in the right order to get the next door to open.

Puzzles are also rarely inclusive: You have one or two players (the few who have any interest whatsoever) try to solve them while the others' eyes gloss over.

They ALSO are rarely as clever as the module (or DM who made 'em) seem to think. They are either wholly obtuse, with the answer being essentially impossible to figure out without already knowing it, or boringly straight-forward.

Either way, I hope they keep them to a minimum, if not actively discourage them in 4e unless they have a clever way of revamping them to be fun in some way I can't possibly imagine.

Fitz

 

[MaelStorm]

I don't know about 3.5 that much because I haven't played it, but...

To make a check you could come up with a table like this:

DC Complexity
--------------
10 Easy
15 Somewhat Complicated
20 Fairly Complex
25 Very Complex
30 Utterly Complex

DC Modifier
-----------
+10 if the character's has no access to possible clues
-05 could ask question to people that knows about something and take the time to gather information
-10 has access to a full library and could ask question and take a lot of time


Lets say its a very complex enigma and the character has no access to clues:
DC 25+10=35

If the character has 25 INT that means he has a +7
Let's say a base of 10+7=17

That means he would still has to roll 18 or higher to know the answer.



That is just a suggestion.

 

[Umbran]

I've never understood why ANYONE likes puzzles in D&D.

Well, why does anyone like any particular aspect of D&D? Why do some folks like the battlemap/wargame elements of combat? Because they ahve a penchant for wargames. Some folks just like puzzles.

Puzzles are also rarely inclusive: You have one or two players (the few who have any interest whatsoever) try to solve them while the others' eyes gloss over.

Rarely is a GM so good as to make every aspect of the game amazingly interesting for all players at the same time. The folks who are not combat-mavens are expected to deal with combat scenes anyway. The folks who don't like social/politics play are expected to live through it too.

Which is not to say that allowing your players eyes to glaze over is good. It just means that the DM has to arrange for there to be something else to do while the puzzles are being solved.

 

[MaelStorm]

I am somewhat an exception, but whenever a GM would come up with a puzzle I was so happy, I was sometimes the only one motivated by it, depending on the group I was in.

I would brainstorm, and come up with lots of ideas. Most of the people would be skeptical or be negative, but it was fruitful on many occasions. Most of the time I would solve it. Sometime someone would be faster than me.

 

[MaelStorm]

I think it depend on the group you are in. If most of the people would only want to slash monsters, they would be negative about it.

But when there is a very hard obstacle to a big treasure or an exit to a dungeon that there would be no way out, people have no choice but to think about a solution. If the DM would put you in a situation, it must be because there are solutions about it. Most of the time my DM would reward with XP the one who could find the solution. (Back in AD&D 2E)

 

[Lizard]

I like puzzles/riddles. If I'm playing a dumb character, he makes stupid suggestions (providing entertainment value, if nothing else); if i'm playing a smart character, I use native intelligence.

Our group, in general, likes them, because they're engaging and subject to player skill more than random dice rolls. My current PC, who is about as sharp as a sackful of wet mice, can't participate in character, but since I'm not a a hyperactive 14 year old with ADD and an overdeveloped sense of entitlement, I can enjoy watching my fellow players have fun for a few minutes even if I'm not "on stage".

And since I'm a paladin, I can always "Pray for divine wisdom" if I, the player, have a solution there's no way the moron I'm portraying could have come up with.

 

[mach1.9pants]

The way I work is that INT only implies intelligence for NPCs. You can use an NPCs Int to ascertain how clever they would be but for PCs Int only represents their characters ability to learn (ie skill points, extra arcane spells) and the characters ability to remember stuff from during and before the campaign started.
This means players have to use their own brains for tactics, puzzles, decisions and stops all the 'but my Wiz has an Int of 22 and could figure out who murdered the Duke' stuff- figure it out yourself!