Quandary! Can I do a “Pirate” campaign with 4th Ed as it is?

[Sunglar]

Quandary! Can I do a “Pirate” campaign with 4th Ed as it is?

Hello all… First a disclaimer, I really don’t wish for this discussion to become an edition war, everybody has their own opinion and I respect them. I’m just wondering this and wanted to hear other opinions.

I’m planning a Fantasy Pirate campaign for a region of my homebrew, and have been wondering how well could 4th Ed work in that context.

The game will include ships, combat at sea, boarding actions, undead, lush jungles, secret island hideaways, exploration, guns, amazons, dinosaurs and even the odd ninja (Pirates vs. Ninjas how could I resist!)

This will not be the PHB POL but have some aspects in a way. The new cosmology, races, etc. presented in 4th Ed are not my main concern. The timeline is set 100 years in the future of the world, recent upheavals as a result of a campaign closing mega adventure have set the stage for the elements of the new edition to appear.

My concern, my biggest worry is, will the rules as they are support this campaign? I believe there are rules for guns in the Adventurer’s Vault, and worst case scenario I can try to write my own, or heck use crossbows as an equivalent. But here is the thing, what about taking away heavy armor from the classes that depend on it. I can’t see a full plate wearing, sword wielding, shield using fighter swinging from one ship to another, or trekking through the jungle, not in that getup.

Ranting alert! Let me refocus…

Big questions:

What options do you see to replace or at least compliment reliance on armor for some classes?

What aspects of this type of adventure (which I barely outlined I realize) you think may become problematic with the current rule set?

For armor I’ve considered stealing the rules for armor and defense (as far as they would affect AC) from SW but have really not taken a hard look at the consequences of this.

Just throwing this out there in case anybody cares to brainstorm with me!

All your opinions are appreciated in advance.

 

[VenezuelanWiz]

First there aren't any rules in the AV for guns. You'll have to make your own, or as you said use crossbows. There are however rules for airships, and at least 3 kinds of seafearing vehicles.

Secondly interms of the loss of armor the ones mostly affected will be the defenders: Fighters, Paladins, and possibly the clerics and warlords. You'd probably have to give them something in return for removing those armors.

Having said that the conquistadores that first arrived in South / Central America, and the Carribbean were wearing at least breastplates and chainmail. So heavier armor is not unheard of in the times of muskets and cannons. Don't know how modern these guns will be.

To make up for their lack of heavier armor you could just give a static AC increase to the classes that would normally be wearing that heavier armor. That would be a +4 to start off to Paladins, and a +3 to fighters for scale if they would be wearing that. I'd just say that if they wear the conquistador breastplate with chainmail it equals plate, chainmail is chainmail, and just the breastplate is scale and call it a day to save yourself the hassle.

Just my two cents

Cheers

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

What options do you see to replace or at least compliment reliance on armor for some classes?

I'm prepping for a swashbuckling campaign too and honestly, I see fighters and paladins wearing heavy armor as usual. They'll lose 1 square of movement and take a -1 or -2 penalty on rope-swinging checks. Even at 1st level, those are negligible penalties. If defenders balk at wearing heavy armor in your game, give them a +2 armor bonus per tier. That approximates the AC they would normally get from heavy armor, and at later levels masterwork heavy armor.

Oh and if you want simple, balanced and realistic-with-the-context-of-4th-edition firearms, check out mine here.

TS

 

[ValhallaGH]

Big questions:

What options do you see to replace or at least compliment reliance on armor for some classes?

Honestly, I don't see why you need to compensate them. The players know what kind of campaign they're getting into. They should build characters that fit within the campaign. And you can build lightly armored fighters and paladins; though they are very different feeling characters at that point.
And the benefit of (effectively) tying an anchor to your chest during a sea battle is that you and your friends become an unstoppable juggernaut of steel and death, slaughtering your way from one end of the ship to the other.

What aspects of this type of adventure (which I barely outlined I realize) you think may become problematic with the current rule set?

The various skill challenges for tromping through trackless jungle may get as mind-numbingly repetitive as actual journeys through trackless jungle.

For armor I’ve considered stealing the rules for armor and defense (as far as they would affect AC) from SW but have really not taken a hard look at the consequences of this.

Basically, SW says you get the better of your armor bonus or your level to your defenses. So, by tenth level you have equaled or exceeded the bonus of all armors. Further, SW keeps the Max Dex mechanic, further limiting armored characters defenses. Unless a character heavily invests in armor, it's just not worth a hero's time (after the first couple of levels).
Keep in mind, that SW defenses rapidly outstrip all modes of attack, quickly making all but the most specialized characters ineffective against heroic-quality defenses. I'm not sure how this changes when you swap over to 4 E encounters.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Characters with a good int or dex will not need armor. Furthermore they'll have good reflex saves.

If you simply made the rules for guns such that guns target reflex instead of armor, then a common quantity of guns will make heavy armor and a bad ref or int score a bad choice in general. Pretty much exactly how it worked in real life.

Additionally, people will want a good dex to fire a gun.

The fact that the iconic pirate melee weapons (swords) all benefit from high dex will also help.

Also - remember that vikings were also pirates, and they were perfectly happy running around in chainmail. It really came down to the existence of the gun that stopped all that.

 

[Ravingdork]

I imagine most pirate characters to be rangers and rogues. Their skill sets and armor/weapon proficiencies (as well as general style) seems to fit the pirate archetype extremely well.

 

[Drudenfusz]

Soldiers in the spanish armada had weared armour, so I think Fighters in D&D can keep their armour on (an still do all the swashbuckling).

 

[ppaladin123]

Check out the FRPG. There is a corsair paragon path for martial classes that gives all sorts of bonuses to knowledge/skill checks regarding sailing and ship activities. The Draeven Marauder (Dragon 364 or 365) has nice pirate flavor too. Even if you don't use them as is, they may give you ideas for feats, skill bonuses, etc.

Rogues, fighters and rangers can all fit various pirate archetypes. You might also use the artificer and switch out "ritual caster" for the alchemy feat. Most of their powers can be reflavored as smoke bombs, pistol shots, cannon blasts, etc.

The adventurer's vault has ships and vehicle combat rules. There are also some magical eye patches oddly enough.

Make use of diseases and endurance checks. Yarr! You have scurvy!

 

[Sunglar]

Well, thank you all for your replies… I leave work, get home, and here are all your opinions and ideas. I’ll tackle all you said, sorry for not quoting, but I think the thread is short enough as not to need it!

VenezuelanWiz, thanks for clarifying that little bit of misinformation on the AV. I thought I read somewhere that guns were in there, but I might have imagined it. I am after all taking medication for a busted ankle! You make a good point, I also felt that if take away the defender’s armor I might need to compensate, although some people made the argument that there is no compensation needed and that high Int and Dex are key and that such a thing is ideal for the type of campaign I’m proposing.

Generally I felt after cursory examination of the defenders that a light armor build seemed suboptimal at firs glance for the classes as they stand. Granted I’ve only DMed 9 session of 4th Ed so far and might not have looked at all the possibilities…

I know about the armor the conquistadors wore VenezuelanWiz, I live in Puerto Rico in the Caribbean so we had them around these parts. Matter of fact I can go to a couple of places and see the actual armors they wore. On a non related note, are you located in Venezuela VenezuelanWiz? Just wondering about fellow Latin American role-players, there seem to a be a few of us around,

Tequila Sunrise interesting take on the firearms rules. I will definitely try that out! Fits with some of the other ideas, specifically with Saeviomagy observation on the importance of Int and Dex on a game where firearms are present. You, like VenezuelanWiz, suggested some kind of bonus, and I think that is something that worries the players that may play Defenders. ValhallaGH makes a good point about the benefits of the armor itself and there are certainly benefits to still wearing it…

I could describe armor with a definitive conquistador feel, but I was going more for a fantasy hybrid that included some elements form classic pirate movies, with Pirates of the Caribbean (only the first one, I really despised the two sequels, but that is subject matter for another post altogether).

ValhallaGH (good to read your opinions again by the way) I’m not sure I like skill challenges that much. I may need to thinker with them a bit to make them satisfying. They seem to leave me and my players flat. We already do a lot of Role-Playing with skill tests sprinkled in and it works for us without the need of the skill challenge mechanic as it stands and seems to satisfy everyone involved. Good points on the SW armor rules, I had not thought that out thoroughly and you certainly pointed to problematic aspects.

Saeviomagy, excellent point, like I mentioned earlier on this post I think that you are right. The presence of Ref targeting weapons bring in a welcome change in strategies and the role of armor. That change may allow me to keep some fantasy elements and encourage some builds with lighter armor for the Defenders. I know Vikings were pirates as well but not the look I was going for…

raven dark64 although you are right that most archetypical pirates would be rangers and rogues, but I don’t want to limit the players just to that two characters, besides I want to make the strange mix I have in mind and that includes Warlord captains and Warlock pirate scourges. I know, my cake and eating it too, I know… (btw, love the links on the signature raven dark64)

All excellent points, thank you. So far these are great ideas on how to deal/visualize/rationalize the armor and firearms dilemmas. Now I need to read up on nautical terms and combat generally. Are the vehicle rules in the AV good for this? My copy is in the post office but it seems I’ll have to wait until Saturday to get my hands on it. Any good maritime adventure rules out there? I have Skull and Crossbones (ins that the right name?) form Green Ronin but really have no idea if there are any rules in there I can port over to 4th Ed.

Some of my players went as far as suggesting using another system for the campaign. I’ve considered it, but still want to see if I can wrap 4th Ed around my concept. Keep you opinions coming!

 

[Sunglar]

Two other people chimed in while I wrote the post… Drudenfusz definitely the Spanish armada example will get used when discussing the campaign with my players. I’m searching for some images as I write this. Heck I may actually use the whole campaign as an excuse to plan a field trip with all my players to the Spanish colonial forts here in the island where we can see the armor itself in the museum (tourism plug for the island, come to Puerto Rico! Jajaja sorry couldn’t resist!)

ppaladin123 thanks for pointing those Paragon Paths. The FRPG is in the post office along AV… Interesting idea on the artificer, I never played Eberron so I have not taken a good look at the class yet. One thing I’m planning on using are the Shifters but repurposing them as island natives channeling bestial aspects of their deities and beliefs.