DracoSuave
First Post
Also, Heavy Armor isn't -that- much different from light armor + Int/Dex base, so a flat AC bonus for previous heavy armor users might get rediculous quickly.
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Quandary! Can I do a “Pirate” campaign with 4th Ed as it is?
- Thread starter Sunglar
- Start date
ValhallaGH
Explorer
Glad I could help.
For me, the argument for wearing armor in pirate battles is the fight in the novel An Oblique Approach. Which, if you've never read the book (a good one) you can read here (chapters 15 and 16).
I do like the idea of having guns target Reflex defenses. It does a nice job of making guns scarier without making armors useless or guns too good. Tequila's gun stats are pretty fun (nice use of the close blast) and pretty well balanced with the 4E rules.
Good Luck.
Walknot
First Post
This is a fun string to read thru. Lots of good ideas. Good question too.
When stretching 4e into any unique setting (like sea-faring, gun wielding) you can expect to be getting creative. Keep creative and flexible during play too, as you are basically play-testing your new concepts. Remember the DM defaults to "yes", and then later the players accept corrections if the game play suffers.
When stretching 4e into any unique setting (like sea-faring, gun wielding) you can expect to be getting creative. Keep creative and flexible during play too, as you are basically play-testing your new concepts. Remember the DM defaults to "yes", and then later the players accept corrections if the game play suffers.
Right, but the problem is that in order for light armor + Int/Dex to be "not -that-much different," fighters and paladins now have to add Int or Dex as a required attribute, whereas before they could afford to leave those scores considerably lower. More MAD = less-effective characters, which is bad when you realize that strikers, controllers, and (to a somewhat lesser extent) leaders aren't going to be so weakened by needing an additional attribute beyond their usual spread.
Personally, I'm in favor of using the rules as-is, and simply describing heavy armor as the sort of heavily-reduced "plate" armor popular in the Renaissance before the omnipresence of firearms kicked armor off the battlefield for good. If you're really set on light- or no-armor defenders, just maker the swordmage's "swordmage warding" a standard class feature of all defenders, and don't give them proficiency with any armor heavier than hide. That still leaves them with a little bit of MAD, but hide + warding + a moderate Dex/Int bonus (say +2) gives the fighter or paladin a base AC of 18, which is pretty respectable.
I played in a "pirate" themed encounter yesterday with my Dwarven Paladin who wears plate and had never seen a lake before, much less swam in one.
He was one of, if not the, standout characters in the encounter.
Let's just say the Water Walk ritual revolutionizes naval warfare. And that it's bad to have a guy with a greataxe chop his way into your ship and start taking down the mast.
He was one of, if not the, standout characters in the encounter.
Let's just say the Water Walk ritual revolutionizes naval warfare. And that it's bad to have a guy with a greataxe chop his way into your ship and start taking down the mast.
Sunglar
Explorer
Hello all, just chiming in to give back my two cents on the thread. Let’s see what you’ve said so far since I last posted…
Milambus, I downloaded Obsidian’s skill challenge system. And will give it a read. The two-weapon build sounds interesting. I’m currently running a very vanilla, as is POL campaign in my own barebones homebrew that integrates all the D&D 4th Ed conceits, and by the look of it it may run all the way to December so we will have the martial book in hand when we play.
Mustrum Ridcully, I really like this idea you and Kordeth suggested. I will repurpose armors like you and others have suggested. I’m currently doing image searches for renaissance style armor and plan on making a new list with images to illustrate the “new” armors. For some reason I would love to keep traditional “fantasy” armors like we have in the PHB and the more renaissance / pirate armors since the world has areas where both will be present. IS it anachronistic, may it go against plausibility, yes! But the campaign has its own internal history and rationalization, again with having the cake and eating it too…
Roger, despite having read the book and using it weekly I had not really internalized how small the penalty is. I realize its there to make it workable and not make the plate wearing fighter sink immediately. So using it as is may actually be the way to go. But I plan on repurposing or re-describing the armor so it works so the players can “suspend their disbelief” as much as that is needed in a fantasy campaign!
VenezuelanWiz, you and Kordeth, mention that fact that by making Int and Dex more important I will be penalizing the Defenders I had not considered this, so thanks! I guess that is why repurposing the armors IS the best bet. I really enjoy this discussion because many of you analyze the rules more thoroughly and point out things that may take me some sessions to realize. I am enthralled by the story and the ploats I’m weaving and how the characters stories and ideas merge into this and I’m easily distracted away from the rules.
epochrog, thank you for the ideas. I realize there may be other systems that emulate the swashbuckling genre better, but I am a sucker for D&D. I’ve played it in all its incarnations since I started playing in 86. You make and interesting point about the bastard swords, which may be a switch. Is that Brutal feature the one I seen to recall reading about from AV? I never managed to pick up my copy from the post office; it will have to wait until Monday. I realize that having these type of guns shoot only once per combat is realistic but for some reason its not very “cinematic” (sorry to drag THAT into the conversation) and I think that if I use guns I would certainly like them to be slower to reload, but not so much so that they become one use items.
And on a TOTALLY not related note, epochrpg, I just purchased Sci-Fi Bash last week and I’m readying it and enjoying it… Back to the thread at hand!
WalterKovacs you also mention repurposing the armors and waiting for the Martial book. I’m not sure I understand every point you make about guns in your post… I know you are making comments on the previous gun suggestions. I THINK I may get it but would you care to elaborate. Just making sure I get your point… Gee I do feel obtuse today!
DracoSuave, sorry to ask but does the nickname have anything to do with the old song Rico Suave? Sorry if it sounds offensive, its just that when I read your nickname I see a Dragonborn prancing around with a half unbuttoned shirt singing Draco… SUAVE!!! I kid you! (No offence meant I assure you!!!)
ValhallaGH, I’ll have to read that right away! I also like the idea of guns targeting REF but want to make sure it doesn’t get wonky with all the options out there…
Anguirus that was a great example… Would you care to elaborate and tell us more?
Walknot I agree this thread is really a lot of fun. It’s helping me shape the future of my campaign and how it will work. I feel more confident that I can run a pirate campaign using 4th Ed than when I wrote the first post!
Hope everyone is having a FUN weekend. I’ll be back soon to keep on readying/posting. LATER!
Milambus, I downloaded Obsidian’s skill challenge system. And will give it a read. The two-weapon build sounds interesting. I’m currently running a very vanilla, as is POL campaign in my own barebones homebrew that integrates all the D&D 4th Ed conceits, and by the look of it it may run all the way to December so we will have the martial book in hand when we play.
Mustrum Ridcully, I really like this idea you and Kordeth suggested. I will repurpose armors like you and others have suggested. I’m currently doing image searches for renaissance style armor and plan on making a new list with images to illustrate the “new” armors. For some reason I would love to keep traditional “fantasy” armors like we have in the PHB and the more renaissance / pirate armors since the world has areas where both will be present. IS it anachronistic, may it go against plausibility, yes! But the campaign has its own internal history and rationalization, again with having the cake and eating it too…
Roger, despite having read the book and using it weekly I had not really internalized how small the penalty is. I realize its there to make it workable and not make the plate wearing fighter sink immediately. So using it as is may actually be the way to go. But I plan on repurposing or re-describing the armor so it works so the players can “suspend their disbelief” as much as that is needed in a fantasy campaign!
VenezuelanWiz, you and Kordeth, mention that fact that by making Int and Dex more important I will be penalizing the Defenders I had not considered this, so thanks! I guess that is why repurposing the armors IS the best bet. I really enjoy this discussion because many of you analyze the rules more thoroughly and point out things that may take me some sessions to realize. I am enthralled by the story and the ploats I’m weaving and how the characters stories and ideas merge into this and I’m easily distracted away from the rules.
epochrog, thank you for the ideas. I realize there may be other systems that emulate the swashbuckling genre better, but I am a sucker for D&D. I’ve played it in all its incarnations since I started playing in 86. You make and interesting point about the bastard swords, which may be a switch. Is that Brutal feature the one I seen to recall reading about from AV? I never managed to pick up my copy from the post office; it will have to wait until Monday. I realize that having these type of guns shoot only once per combat is realistic but for some reason its not very “cinematic” (sorry to drag THAT into the conversation) and I think that if I use guns I would certainly like them to be slower to reload, but not so much so that they become one use items.
And on a TOTALLY not related note, epochrpg, I just purchased Sci-Fi Bash last week and I’m readying it and enjoying it… Back to the thread at hand!
WalterKovacs you also mention repurposing the armors and waiting for the Martial book. I’m not sure I understand every point you make about guns in your post… I know you are making comments on the previous gun suggestions. I THINK I may get it but would you care to elaborate. Just making sure I get your point… Gee I do feel obtuse today!
DracoSuave, sorry to ask but does the nickname have anything to do with the old song Rico Suave? Sorry if it sounds offensive, its just that when I read your nickname I see a Dragonborn prancing around with a half unbuttoned shirt singing Draco… SUAVE!!! I kid you! (No offence meant I assure you!!!)
ValhallaGH, I’ll have to read that right away! I also like the idea of guns targeting REF but want to make sure it doesn’t get wonky with all the options out there…
Anguirus that was a great example… Would you care to elaborate and tell us more?
Walknot I agree this thread is really a lot of fun. It’s helping me shape the future of my campaign and how it will work. I feel more confident that I can run a pirate campaign using 4th Ed than when I wrote the first post!
Hope everyone is having a FUN weekend. I’ll be back soon to keep on readying/posting. LATER!
Amphimir Míriel
Explorer
Other people posted all the good ideas already, so I'll just say:
4th edition + Pirates Guide to Freeport = Tons of fun
4th edition + Pirates Guide to Freeport = Tons of fun
BASHMAN
Basic Action Games
Glad to see you liking the product. It is the version with the new cover (the blue armored man fighting a big bug in the corridor w/ a space battle outside?)
As for the Brutal property-- essentially you reroll the dice if the roll too low. So Brutal 2 rerolls any result of 2 or less on the die.
Actually for firearms, I think maybe +1 to hit, but attacking reflex would be just fine. I think Standard to reload for a pistol and Move+Standard to reload a musket would be just fine. These should be military grade missile weapons-- any class that can use a crossbow can use one also.
Seriously, though, Make Rapier a military grade weapon, and you've solved the bastard sword problem right there.
ObsidianCrane
First Post
If you are attacking Ref, then no plus at all to hit is the way to go.
For the armor I would suggest using a regional benefit. eg: Regional Benefit: If your class grants proficiency in leather armor, while you are wearing armor from the region you gain +2 AC.
You can then have regional armors eg:
Regional Gambeson (Prof Hide armor) +1 0 0 30 20 lb. (Leather enchantments)
Regional Jacket (Prof Chainmail) +4 — 0 –1 40 30 lb. (Hide Enchantments)
Regional Vest (Prof Scale Armor) +5 — 0 –1 45 40 lb. (Chain Enchantments)
Regional Coat (Prof Plate armor) +6 — –1 –1 50 45 lb. (Scale Enchantments)
This would give you an array of armors that lets you match the PHB armors closely if you are from the Region. Enchanted Leather armor and Leather armor would still be relatively common in the region as its only heroes that gain the maximum benefit from the other armors. Full plate does not become completley irrelevant as there are some magical enhancements that can only be infused into it.
Also this lets you make up regional benefits for characters from other places who will then just use the standard PHB armors because they are better for them to use.
For the armor I would suggest using a regional benefit. eg: Regional Benefit: If your class grants proficiency in leather armor, while you are wearing armor from the region you gain +2 AC.
You can then have regional armors eg:
Regional Gambeson (Prof Hide armor) +1 0 0 30 20 lb. (Leather enchantments)
Regional Jacket (Prof Chainmail) +4 — 0 –1 40 30 lb. (Hide Enchantments)
Regional Vest (Prof Scale Armor) +5 — 0 –1 45 40 lb. (Chain Enchantments)
Regional Coat (Prof Plate armor) +6 — –1 –1 50 45 lb. (Scale Enchantments)
This would give you an array of armors that lets you match the PHB armors closely if you are from the Region. Enchanted Leather armor and Leather armor would still be relatively common in the region as its only heroes that gain the maximum benefit from the other armors. Full plate does not become completley irrelevant as there are some magical enhancements that can only be infused into it.
Also this lets you make up regional benefits for characters from other places who will then just use the standard PHB armors because they are better for them to use.
Pbartender
First Post
Having firearms target reflex is a bad idea. Remember, in 4E, the power --not the weapon -- denotes which ability modifier you use for attack and damage and which defense you target. By doing that, you effectively turn the firearm into a magic item with an at-will attack power, and can no longer use it with all the nifty ranged powers that a ranger or rogue would get.
The easiest thing to do would be Claudio's suggestion... Use the base stats for a crossbow/hand crossbow and add a special tag like high-crit or brutal. Then, make certain you denote that it counts as a crossbow for the purposes of the benefits of feats and powers.
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