Question about Charm Person

[Gizzard]

How do you DM the "+5 to save if the creature is currently threatened or attacked" restriction to this spell? Here's a situation that came up; how would you rule:

Wizard walks up to 30' of three Guards. He stands and casts Charm on the Leader. Does the Leader get +5 on this save? The Wizard is pretty close and waving his hands around, making magic incantations. OTOH, the Wizard didnt appear hostile until the casting. Perhaps the Leader is caught "magically flat-footed" and doesnt feel threatened? Hmmm.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Casting the spell Charm Person isn't a threat, itself. If the Wizard is alone or his friends are not behaving in a hostile fashion, then casting the spell on its own will never give the saving throw bonus.

 

[Gizzard]

Casting the spell Charm Person isn't a threat, itself. If the Wizard is alone or his friends are not behaving in a hostile fashion, then casting the spell on its own will never give the saving throw bonus.

So then the Wizard could have just Charmed all the guards, one at a time? Charm on you - and you - and you.

 

[hong]

So then the Wizard could have just Charmed all the guards, one at a time? Charm on you - and you - and you.

Let's assume the guards are smart enough to catch on eventually, shall we?

 

[Valmur_Dwur]

So I walk up to you and start waving my backpack(not considered a weapon) around you'll think nothing of it? Or will you become more aware that some idiot is swinging this around and liable to hit me? In a fantasy world I would think any guard would consider it hostile if someone began chanting how do I know what will happen? Heck he might turn me into a frog! I would use common sense and roll inintive to see if the guard is flat-footed. If so no bonus to him else give him the bonus. Rolling for init doesn't mean everyone starts going hammer and tongs on each other It just allows for what you described the "flat-footed" guardsman bored out of his mind when someone starts mumbling words

Cheers!

 

[Gizzard]

Let's assume the guards are smart enough to catch on eventually, shall we?

That would be my assumption too. ;-) But I need a guideline to figure out when to start applying that +5.

Heck he might turn me into a frog!

I think this is very true; I sorta assumed that any spellcasting is a potentially hostile act. I also assumed that during all the magical incanting and waving of arms that it's pretty clear who the Wizard is aiming at -- he looks directly at you and chants "Frogus! Frogus! Frogus!"

I would use common sense and roll inintive to see if the guard is flat-footed.

I did something similar, but the Wizard's player was frustrated by this call because he felt he always was going to get saddled by the +5 penalty. He felt that the +5 penalty should be the exception rather than the rule.

I see a couple different points of view in this thread, so I'm interested in seeing more discussion of this.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Well, remember, you can make a move-equivalent action and cast a spell in the same round, so the Charm Person takes all of, what, three seconds?

I'd give the second guard some bonuses to his save DC, though, and increase them as he went, from being increasingly aware. Just not the first guard, and not the full +5.

 

[Spatula]

In the middle of a fight = target gets bonus. In previous editions, the target got a bonus to its save equal to the amount of damage that the caster and its allies had caused the target, instead of the flat +5 bonus. The bonus is there to help keep charm from being used in combat, not to make the spell effectively negative 4th level for save purposes.

In your specific example, I would not give the first guard the bonus. The other guards may or may not get it depending on how they react to what just happened.

 

[Valmur_Dwur]

I agree that the first guard probably shouldn't get the bonus BUT it was stated that the mage walked up to them and started casting. That would put anyone on their toes Of course the player didn't like the way it played out next I'll have the fighter just non-chantly walk up to the Guardsman with my longsword held in my hand but pointing down. This way he won't think I'm about to gut 'em The MU should use a better method of this like have one of the other party members interact with the guards while he casts the spell. If you don't want to be noticed don't do noticable things

 

[Bastoche]

Not that I'm against that call (as a matter of fact, I think it's a bit ridiculous that this spells has both a S and V component, making it idiotic at best IMO), but when would that bonus not apply ? I have the feeling that the call you're suggesting would imply that the +5 bonus to save is there by default. Why create such a spell if it never works ? Would the creators of this spell think of it first and making it more subtle, so it can actually be a useful spell ?