Question about Charm Person

[Gizzard]

Bastoche's comments are nearly word-for-word what my Wizard said to me after the game. For what its worth. ;-)

 

[Bastoche]

The MU should use a better method of this like have one of the other party members interact with the guards while he casts the spell. If you don't want to be noticed don't do noticable things

Even that wouldn't do. Imagine you're talking with a policement and then suddenly your friend starts talking in a wierd language loudly moving around like crazy. That wouldn't be any better. I'd even say it's even less smart since the guard probably will be even more on his guard, heck, that's his job. Expecially when unknown "troubemakers"... err adventurers are around.

 

[Bastoche]

Bastoche's comments are nearly word-for-word what my Wizard said to me after the game. For what its worth. ;-)

Personnally, I think charm person should be a 2nd level spell without either V or S component. Maybe even without both. Then the +5 would only apply within actual combat. The S component might be present, but in the spell flavor text, not in it's actual rule, for example by simply pointing (subtly) your finger toward your target. S component require the caster to "dance" and V to almost "yell".

Charm person have always been my personal 3E pet peve.

 

[Pielorinho]

I'm sort of with your player on this. The +5 penalty shouldn't apply if initiative hasn't been rolled yet.

Here's how I would have handled it:
Surprise round: Wizard casts charm person.
Roll for initiative.
On their initiative, the guards will attack the wizard.
If the captain goes before the guards, he'll keep on talking.
If the captain goes after the guards, he'll try to stop them.
Once the captain tries to stop the guards, hijinks ensue.

This isn't a very good use of the spell: a smart wizard will use it on people who don't have allies nearby.

(In order to keep the spell reasonable and useful in a city setting, I add two small rules to it: if you fail your save vs. magic, you don't remember the spell being cast on you; and after the duration expires, many people will try to rationalize their strange behavior toward the caster).

Daniel

 

[Gizzard]

Pielorinho's suggestion is how I ruled during the game, for what that is worth.

...and after the duration expires, many people will try to rationalize their strange behavior toward the caster

I played it this way under 1E rules, and it is very very strong.

(We called it "the bad girlfriend effect". The Charmed player would never quite understand why the rest of the party disapproved of his "bad girlfriend" and would rationalize whatever happened, even after the Charm wore off. "Well, if you guys hadn't always been so mean to Lord Necronomicon then he probably wouldnt have tried to feast on your entrails. Its at least half your fault. And I'm still kinda mad at you for throwing that Fireball at him, come to think of it." ) ;-)

 

[Valmur_Dwur]

Well as it seems I'm playing devil's advocate here ; it wouldn't apply if you caught someone flat-footed. Of course that means roll inititive Like I said in my first post that is the beginning of whatever actions you perceive. Again I'm all for a surprise round but there are rules for that also. So what do you want to use opposed Bluff/Sense Motive or a spot check? Neither works very well But then again you could as DM rule 0 anything. I guess as a DM I want the players to at least try to make it seem plausible. I don't see IMO the ability of anyone to advance upon a city guard mumbling and gesturing without being taken aback by it. Depends on the city and the general level of magic and a bunch of other stuff. If you allow the "surprise" round to always go to the player in a non-confrontation scene; then what if it were Orcs or something else that would be more combative. Do we let the MU cast Charm Person as their own "surprise" move every time? Then your back to the fighter holding his sword down or the rogue palming a dagger and wanting the same benefit the MU enjoys. Bottom line if it works for this encounter then I want it as a player to work for every encounter. The +5 to me is earned by beating the inititive check or granted "automatically" if the party is hostile or threatening them.

YMMV

 

[Pielorinho]

Bad girlfriend effect -- hee hee! Although bad boyfriend effect would be just as accurate, natch.

In ruling that the wizard would get the surprise round, I'm assuming that the guards are indifferent toward the wizard. If they were unfriendly or hostile, they'd get to roll initiative immediately.

I do play that a charmed character doesn't remember the spell being cast, but I also rule that the character can be convinced that she's charmed. If she gives a stranger a fantastic deal on magic weaponry and normally she's a total skinflint, then when the spell wears off, she'll probably have no trouble guessing that she's been charmed, and she'll probably head straight for the town guard (or the town crime boss, depending).

But if the spell is used subtly, the charmed person will never know. If a guard occasionally takes bribes from folks he knows, and this time he takes a bribe from a pretty young lass that he doesn't know, and he lets her by with a really low bribe, then when the spell wears off, he'll probably believe he was thinking with his lower half.

Charm Person, like silent image, is a very versatile spell. Used subtly, they're both fantastic; used crudely, they're both pretty worthless.

In this case, I think the guards could've told the captain that he was charmed and convinced him at least to hold the wizard captive until the barracks priest could come cast a detect magic on the captain. The captain would've been superfriendly to the wizard, but would've followed procedures. (Any well-organized town guard should have procedures to deal with enchantments and other magical attacks.)

Daniel

 

[Gizzard]

I do play that a charmed character doesn't remember the spell being cast, but I also rule that the character can be convinced that she's charmed.

This is drifting off-topic, but we seem to have some sort of vague consensus, so off we go. ;-)

I also play that the Charmed character doesnt remember being Charmed, but there are still always problems. Generally, intelligent creatures will greet each other by name or do other things that show that they really do know each other from the past. Example: Charmed Fighter says to his party, "Hey guys, I want you to meet my old buddy....um... . Hmmm, I can't remember his name." Party says, "Perhaps this is because he Charmed you, hey?" Fighter, "No, no, no way. I've known ...um... forever. You can totally trust him. Why I remember back when he and I were together out on the....um....um.... and he and I ...um... um...."

So, it seems you've gotta rule 0 it so that the Charmed characters memories make sense to himself. He somehow knows the Charmer's name (or glibly makes one up), he somehow has some crazy past history for their relationship together that bears some minimal scrutiny.

Following this logic, I did give a Half-Orc Thug who had come to rough up our Wizard a second save when the Wizard asked him, "So, old buddy, what brings you here to my room at 3 in the morning?" Rubbing someone's nose in the discontinuities in their memories is probably not a good idea. Lol.