Question about OGC, Wizards, and such. From a new guy.

[Silvanos]

Hi all,

First, thank you all. I have learned SO much about this business over the last 3 weeks from reading your posts. This board is invaluable.

I'm a map maker, and I have... Oh 45 maps of different Strongholds that I want to sell. Each map has been created from the rules presented in the Stronghold Builders Guide book. I know that this book is not OGL, nor covered in the SRD. So I cannot directly referance any of the matrial in that document. (Right?)

My question is... If I sell the maps, with NPC's descriptions, and detailed room descriptions, but do not referance anything in that book... Would I be ok? For example, this is from my Work in Progress FAQ:

Strongholds:
1) What are Strongholds?
Strongholds are a player’s safe haven, or a goal for a player to achieve. My Strongholds are built according to the Stronghold Builders Guide Book published by Wizards of the Coast.
2) How do you figure what price is right for each level of a PC?
I am taking 10% of the total PC wealth for a given level. For Example: A 10th level Druid would have 9800 gold to build a Stronghold.
3) Why do you not list each “Stronghold Component” in the description?
The Stronghold Builders Guide Book is not Open Gaming Content, nor is it in the System Reference Document. Until such time that it is OGC, I cannot use the specific information presented in the book in any product. If you need more information than is presented, you should get the Stronghold Builders Guide Book. It’s a pretty good book, and I highly suggest it for any player that wants a Stronghold.
4) What is the benefit if I am a player?
You get a Stronghold to present to your Game Master, which includes room descriptions, servant stats, maps and a price.
5) What is the benefit if I am a Game Master?
My products also have NPC’s that own, work in, and support each Stronghold. If you as a Game Master want your players to have a Stronghold, but you do not want to just give it to them outright… Well you have an adventure to flesh out, but the NPC’s are all ready to go.
6) What am I getting for my $6.00, $5.00 or $X?
It depends on the product. Read the description closely! Most Stronghold maps are going to have the NPC’s that live there, as well as their general goals, staff, and descriptions of each area. There may also be some plot hooks, and a general description of what type of land the Stronghold stands on. Otherwise it is up to the Game Master to decide, and of course the Game Master has the FINAL say!


Is it even ok to put the products name on my website?

Thanks all.

 

[jmucchiello]

You've already committed the biggest no-no of working with the OGL. You've been referring to a non-OGL source while creating content. Are you sure that you have not slipped anything from the Stronghold Builder's Guide into your work? Sure enough to bet your business on?

No, you shouldn't even say "Druid stronghold 1 costs 10,000 gp" if you based that number on the work in the Stronghold Builders Guide. Using nothing from the book means using nothing.

OTOH, you could try sending an email to WotC asking permission to use the material. You never know what they might say.

Is it even ok to put the products name on my website?

Probably not. As it says in the OGL (paragraph 7): "You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark."

Thus, if you include a statblock (text derived from OGC) you cannot indicate compatibility with the Stronghold Builder's Guide if the title of the book is considered a Trademark by WotC.

This board is not a great place to learn about the OGL. You should join the mailing list on opengamingfoundation.org (ogl-l is the list name) if you want to read discussion about the OGL from people who know a lot about it.

As with all OGL discussions. IANAL and this is not legal advice. If you need legal advice, see a licensed attorney in your area.

 

[Silvanos]

OK thank you. I will be joining that list.

I am 100% sure I have not mentioned anything in the SBG to this point, as I have only created the maps, and written the room descriptions. I have not mentioned anything about prices in my final work. (Scratch pads yes, PDF NO!)

Thank you very much for the information. Sometimes you just need a second voice for what you already know!

 

[Flyspeck23]

First off, jmucchiello is absolutely right. Take special notice of "Thus, if you include a statblock (text derived from OGC) you cannot indicate compatibility with the Stronghold Builder's Guide if the title of the book is considered a Trademark by WotC."
Now, when you say "I am 100% sure I have not mentioned anything in the SBG to this point", be aware that you shouldn't mention the SBG at all (that includes any recommendation!), unless you get permission to do this.

I'm a map maker, and I have... Oh 45 maps of different Strongholds that I want to sell. Each map has been created from the rules presented in the Stronghold Builders Guide book. I know that this book is not OGL, nor covered in the SRD. So I cannot directly referance any of the matrial in that document. (Right?)

My question is... If I sell the maps, with NPC's descriptions, and detailed room descriptions, but do not referance anything in that book... Would I be ok? ... (snip)

My question in return would be: Why are you using the rules from the SBG for your stronghold? The SBG is mainly for players who'd like to build their own castle, and not so much for the DM when designing adventures.
Don't get me wrong, I like your idea - that project sounds promising. But I really don't see a reason to base it on the SBG at all.
Stay away from "stronghold components" and the like. And really, I don't see the need to include these. Just finish up your strongholds, describe them in as much detail as necessary, and give a price if you must. If that price sounds reasonable, that should suffice. Anything more, and you really should ask WotC for permission.

Of course, IANAL. And consulting an attorney is kind of the "entry fee" for d20 publishers

 

[Silvanos]

Well I really wanted that info to tie the product to players. DM's of course do not need the component info.

But selling a product only to DM's limits your sales a bit right? So I was trying to add something to appeal to players. Like "Hey GM I have X gold left, and I was thinking I wanted a place to hang the Helm so to speak. Take a look at this stronghold built according to WotC's rules!"

Thank you all for the imput!

D

 

[afstanton]

Well I really wanted that info to tie the product to players. DM's of course do not need the component info.

But selling a product only to DM's limits your sales a bit right? So I was trying to add something to appeal to players. Like "Hey GM I have X gold left, and I was thinking I wanted a place to hang the Helm so to speak. Take a look at this stronghold built according to WotC's rules!"

Thank you all for the imput!

D

I think if you drop the "built according to WotC's rules" bit you'd be a lot better off. How exactly are you going to communicate to a buyer that you used that book without referring to it? I'd suggest removing all references to WotC products except those required by the d20 license (if you want to use it, that is) and be done with it.

The other thing to consider is the possibility of using third party rules systems. I'm partial to Eden Studios' Book of War, personally. It would be a lot easier to reference another book when breaking down a castle's price list than it would be to explain how it just so happens that your prices match those found in a WotC book *exactly* - and yet you give no credit to where the prices come from.

As always, IANAL.

Aaron

 

[Flyspeck23]

But selling a product only to DM's limits your sales a bit right? So I was trying to add something to appeal to players. Like "Hey GM I have X gold left, and I was thinking I wanted a place to hang the Helm so to speak. Take a look at this stronghold built according to WotC's rules!"

Too true, but that's what I tried to say with "reasonable priced". If you don't derivate the prices from SBG, but still give a reasonable price, that should be ok for a DM when a player shows him your work.

Player: "Hey, I've got 200,000 gp to burn, and in this book is a castle for exactly that price. Here, take a look, it's pretty cool."
DM: "Well, is it based on the SBG?"
Player: "No, it isn't. But the price for this castle seems reasonable."
DM: "Hmmm... I'll need to sink my head into it - I'll tell you if it's ok next week."

That's what you should be aiming for - unless you get permission from WotC to use the SBG material, as said before. But honestly, I don't see that happening


[Edit: typos...]

 

[Morgenstern]

Uh, wow. You guys are just a little paranoid, don't you think? IF you dont' refence the book at all (nor should you) presenting a cost for a complete structure is just a number. A number, you know, one of those non-copyrightable things? You can calculate those numbers using the SBG all you like, just don't show your work. Then when theoretical GM who even gives enough of a damn to own such a third tier product goes to check it, he miraculously find the price matches perfectly. He might check the number on a second product if it comes up, and finding it matches perfectly again, I'll bet you he doesn't waste his time checking a third because he KNOWS the author is using the system and all's right with the world. The GM who doesn't have the SBG might check the cost, but by definition it's being compared to his own standards so you are in a hit and miss situation, and you've generated all your numbers from product to product in a uniform fashion, so you'r probably close and at least you're consistant.

Finally, does no one ever just mail WotC and ask if you can include a pointer to their product? As in "Hi, I've got a clean, professional product. I'd be happy to show it to you. I'd like to get permission to include a sentence inside and on the back cover that says something along the lines of '"to gain the full enjoyment of this product, you must own the SGB.' I think this would help me avoid recreating similar material and present you with a free advertisment opportunity..."

It's not that hard to ask...

 

[Flyspeck23]

Finally, does no one ever just mail WotC and ask if you can include a pointer to their product? As in "Hi, I've got a clean, professional product. I'd be happy to show it to you. I'd like to get permission to include a sentence inside and on the back cover that says something along the lines of '"to gain the full enjoyment of this product, you must own the SGB.' I think this would help me avoid recreating similar material and present you with a free advertisment opportunity..."

It's not that hard to ask...

... and this approach was already suggested by the very first answer in this thread by jmucchiello (although I think it's a little funny to suggest to WotC that this new book will be an "advertisment opportunity" for them...).


On more thing: a healthy dose of paranoia can't hurt when dealing with OGL & Co. Better to be careful, even more so if a first-time publisher is asking for advice.
And: what can and can't be copyrighted is a little different when dealing with the OGL. It's not as simple as saying "A number, you know, one of those non-copyrightable things?" if these numbers are derivated from a non-OGC book by WotC.

Of course, IANAL

 

[jmucchiello]

... and this approach was already suggested by the very first answer in this thread by jmucchiello (although I think it's a little funny to suggest to WotC that this new book will be an "advertisment opportunity" for them...).

I just want to clarify that I didn't suggest offering an advertizing opportunity to WotC. I only suggested asking for their permission. I don't think the advertizing angle would fly at all.

OTOH, I was suggesting going for broke on asking for permission -- don't just ask for "compatible with SBG", ask for the use of the pricing system and being able to show your work too. If that fails, then fall back to the compatibility request. You never know what will be allowed.