Question about Shackled City (SPOILER)

[MithrasRahl]

So we just got back from defeating an Undead Green Dragon (forget the name) and rescuing the Mayor's wife. The DM let me know that according to the adventure, we should have hit level 14 at the end of that session. Problem is, due to many, many party deaths, re-created characters, and just plain missing fights, the 2 highest level characters just hit 13, and the other 4 are half-way through 12. On top of that, we hemorrhaged gold at various points when we fogot to write it down, so we're down there too.

So my question is, this campaign is is known to be very brutal, and at a point when we're supposed to have 14 levels and roughly 150k in loot each, we're 4 level 12s and 2 level 13s, with about 90,000 each, so just how screwed are we in the coming adventures? (no details, just want to know whether I should be expecting a TPK or not)

 

[sckeener]

Talk to your DM, you can have side quests/adventures to get you that needed experience.

It is expected that the DM will run side adventures in APs when the characters are not up to snuff.

 

[Jhaelen]

So my question is, this campaign is is known to be very brutal, and at a point when we're supposed to have 14 levels and roughly 150k in loot each, we're 4 level 12s and 2 level 13s, with about 90,000 each, so just how screwed are we in the coming adventures? (no details, just want to know whether I should be expecting a TPK or not)

Oooh, I think then you're exactly at the start of the chapter that includes the encounter I consider the most lethal in the entire adventure path.

sckeener is right, if you're behind more than a level, you should really embark on some side quest first - unless you're DM will take it into account and reduce the difficulty of the following encounters. How many characters do you have in your party, btw.? SCAP assumes a party of 6 IIRC.

 

[MithrasRahl]

We've got 6, and the side-quest/free money isn't going to happen, we've commented on party level and gold before, it's not happening. Part of the problem is that the other players don't really care one way or another, and the other is that we have a pretty strong group.

Borgan Grunt, the 11 Warblade/1 Fighter Dwarf, with 181 HP, and a charge maneuver that, combined with normal damage, does 4d6+58 (and that's without a power attack that would work at a 1 for 2 damage ratio)

Lo-Ping, the 5 Mystic/5 Combat Medic/2 Contemplative Aasimar that heals 1d8+24 HP with a cure light wounds mass, and can add a sanctuary kicker to it with a DC 29 Will save to overcome it.

Dell Brandstone, the Ranger 6/Fighter 4/Deepwood 2/Peerless 1, with a Force Bow that does 1d8+9 per hit with 5 attacks per round while hasted that pass 99% of DR, and a spell (Hunter's Mercy) that allows him to almost Auto-Crit twice a day with a x4 crit modifier

Blist, the 13 level mix of Fighter, Rogue and Swordsage, 4 attacks with Shadowblade and Assassin's Stance

Augustine, the 12th level Grey Elf Wizard/Mage of the Arcane Order, with rods of lesser maximize, and a bunch fo sudden feats, wrecks up at least 1 encounter per session

Our last was Smashfoot, a Psionic warrior, but he died again last session, so he's remaking his character for next session.

The point is, we've been punching above our weight for a while, so I'm guessing it'll keep working until it doesn't, at which point there will be a TPK

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Wow, that looks like a fairly potent party you have there. How have you been finding the combats so far? I think that if you've been dealing with them ok to date you will probably manage ok going forward.

Olaf the Stout

 

[MithrasRahl]

We've had a fair amount of deaths, which is why our average party level is low, but a fair amount have been from rolling 1s.

2 deaths in 1 fight came from rolling a 1 on a massive damage fort save. Then last session our 181 HP tank rolled a 1 on his and died. He had also died earlier from a hold person + CdG.

Basically, we either almost get a TPK or we roll them with little problem.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I remember one significant encounter in the game where the "raw" level of the characters is very important related to the power of a special monster. Be sure to spread out if you encounter it. (But since I don't want to spoil your fun, I can't really tell you when it will happen. But: If it feels like the end of the world (at least the immediate surrounding), be ready...)

Our group had 4 characters: Bard, Cleric, Ranger (Archery), Fighter instead of the expected 6 (by the way: If there is anything I don't like on 4E, is the assumption that there are 5 PCs - that will be hard to pull off in our group, since we only have 5 regular players, including one as the DM). We added to our party via the Leadership feat from the Bard. The cohort was a Barbarian, and her lower level didn't help at all..

The Bard was very useful (plus fun), but it would definitely helped more if we had a "real" Wizard, I suppose.

Our group had many deaths, and one near TPK when we were ambushed (Cleric died in the first round, I think. The Bard - as always - escaped with his cohort and raised us later...). Still, we managed somehow. Generally, I saw my Fighter build as fun, but suboptimal (no Weapon Focus feats for optimied to-hit and damage), but he focussed on Trip and other combat maneuver related stuff. In hindsight, I really can't tell whether the build was maybe actually a lot more helpful then I thought - Tripping denied many monsters their multiple attacks or easy maneuvering, and was as such very helpful. But many monsters weren't really "trippable". A artifact/magic item that we got during the adventure path was very helpful, but probably overpowered.

In the end, we prevailed, but not with multiple character deaths.

By the way: If nothing else helps, try to rely on the "hit-and-run" tactics of Scry/Buff/Teleport and Novaing. It won't always help, since you don't have infinite time sometimes, but never forget: Resurrection usually also takes a day, so S-B-T might still be the better tactic.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

We've had a fair amount of deaths, which is why our average party level is low, but a fair amount have been from rolling 1s.

2 deaths in 1 fight came from rolling a 1 on a massive damage fort save. Then last session our 181 HP tank rolled a 1 on his and died. He had also died earlier from a hold person + CdG.

Basically, we either almost get a TPK or we roll them with little problem.

By the way: I would suggest to your group and the DM that you remove the massive damage threshold rules. At high levels, this damage just happens too often.

And I know exactly what you are talking about. Naturals ones or two on save or death/be screwed magic (and what magic at that level isn't that anyway?) are a common source of death, closely followed by monsters dealing at least your hit points in damage while you're still flat-footed. (Our Ranger really dreaded the "Thunderbeasts" after such a "one-shot-kill" against him...)

 

[MithrasRahl]

I already did, both the party and the DM disagree with me, though to be fair, this is literally the first time we've played at level 12/13 (usually school or somethine causes the campaign to fall apart by 10th level), so they don't know that it will be a common occurance

 

[WizarDru]

I already did, both the party and the DM disagree with me, though to be fair, this is literally the first time we've played at level 12/13 (usually school or somethine causes the campaign to fall apart by 10th level), so they don't know that it will be a common occurance

Here's the problem. D&D 3.X, at high levels, can be nasty. And the SCAP is NASTIER. Having 6 players is not as much of a boon as other times, as the SCAP was written for a party of six...but with clever party design, you can get some serious synergy to boost you to handle the challenges. The problem you'll face, however, is that high-level D&D is all about the preparations. Combats quickly become very fast: usually the victor is decided by the 2nd or 3rd round (though the combat may continue for a while).

D&D's common problem is that most monsters are 'eggshells-with-hammers'. They often dish out hellacious damage, that will turn weaker PCs into chum....but they often can't take that same kind of punishment. By the time my 3.5 campaign had finished, the party's paladin could do over 215 points of damage on single hit, if he were smiting the right type of opponents (evil outsiders, usually). So often characters would be incapacitated by monsters/enemies quickly.

The secret is teamwork, having plenty of purchased or crafted items and keeping ready healing in the forms of spells, potions and scrolls. We abandoned the SCAP, after we found it a little too meat-grinder for our tastes.