Question about Stacking of positive energy aura of Vivacious creatures.

[killem2]

Does the Positive Energy Aura of a Vivacious creature stack for someone if they standing within two or more Positive Energy Auras?


For Reference:


Positive Energy Aura (Su): Any living creature within 10 feet of a vivacious creature gains 1 hit point per round due to the aura of positive energy surrounding it. Creatures that exceed their full normal hit points from this effect need to make Fortitude saves as if in a positive-dominant environment. Creatures with immunity to positive energy effects, as well as other vivacious creatures, are not affected by this aura. If conscious, a vivacious creature can suppress this aura as a standard action, but the creature takes 1 point of Strength damage for each full minute that the aura is inactive. The aura always functions while the creature is unconscious.

 

[Dozen]

Hit points don't 'stack'. They aren't bonuses or penalties in themselves, you either have them or you don't. Multiple auras deal/heal damage separately, as two fighters hitting you with a sword each at the same time.

 

[Cleon]

Does the Positive Energy Aura of a Vivacious creature stack for someone if they standing within two or more Positive Energy Auras?

For Reference:

Positive Energy Aura (Su): Any living creature within 10 feet of a vivacious creature gains 1 hit point per round due to the aura of positive energy surrounding it. Creatures that exceed their full normal hit points from this effect need to make Fortitude saves as if in a positive-dominant environment. Creatures with immunity to positive energy effects, as well as other vivacious creatures, are not affected by this aura. If conscious, a vivacious creature can suppress this aura as a standard action, but the creature takes 1 point of Strength damage for each full minute that the aura is inactive. The aura always functions while the creature is unconscious.

There's nothing in there about it stacking, so I'd rule is doesn't.

A positive-dominant plane gives fast healing 2 (or 5 for a major-dominant plane). It wouldn't seem right if a half-dozen vivacious creatures had a combined aura stronger than the Positive Energy Plane.

 

[Cleon]

Hit points don't 'stack'. They aren't bonuses or penalties in themselves, you either have them or you don't. Multiple auras deal/heal damage separately, as two fighters hitting you with a sword each at the same time.

True, but you're not talking hit points alone, but healing.

The power says it works like a positive-dominated plane, which specifically provides Fast Healing.

Furthermore, the Fast Healing Epic Feat has the text:

Benefit: You gain fast healing 3, or your existing fast healing increases by 3. This feat does not stack with fast healing granted by magic items or nonpermanent magical effects.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

So fast healing can be stacking or non-stacking, depending on its source, and this is the kind of healing that a Vivacious Aura's Positive Energy Aura supplies.

Since the rules don't specify whether it stacks or not, that leaves it to the DM to decide.

If I was running the encounter I'd err on the conservative side and make the Vivacious Creature's healing aura non-stacking.

 

[Dozen]

There's nothing in there about it stacking, so I'd rule is doesn't.

There are no rules for this specific situation because WoTC expect you to have some common sense! If two clerics heal you at the same time, you don't get only one of the healing effects. Where would the hit points you didn't get go, anyway? Energy doesn't just disappear! That wouldn't only violate the rules, that would go against the most basic laws of physics!

Furthermore, the Fast Healing Epic Feat has the text:

It says the feat's effects stack. Haven't you seen a feat description before?

So fast healing can be stacking or non-stacking, depending on its source, and this is the kind of healing that a Vivacious Aura's Positive Energy Aura supplies.

Waitaminutewaitaminutewaitaminute. What. If you interpret the Special note as you did(you shouldn't), then there are only rules for stacking healing effects, not non-stacking ones. What kind of logic is that? There should be an opposite of something just because it exists? "I'll be damned, the rules mention base attack bonus, I guess there are base attack penalties somewhere, let's leave it at that and not look it up!" This is ridiculous.

 

[Cleon]

There are no rules for this specific situation because WoTC expect you to have some common sense! If two clerics heal you at the same time, you don't get only one of the healing effects. Where would the hit points you didn't get go, anyway? Energy doesn't just disappear! That wouldn't only violate the rules, that would go against the most basic laws of physics!

It says the feat's effects stack. Haven't you seen a feat description before?

Waitaminutewaitaminutewaitaminute. What. If you interpret the Special note as you did(you shouldn't), then there are only rules for stacking healing effects, not non-stacking ones. What kind of logic is that? There should be an opposite of something just because someone said a thing exist? "I'll be damned, there is base attack bonus, I guess there are base attack penalties somewhere, let's leave it at that and not look it up!" This is ridiculous.

Well you're welcome to interpret it however you like, but the fast healing feat is enough to tell me that some fast healing abilities don't stack with others.

Frankly, my main reason for not having it 'stack' is so a vivacious creature's positive energy aura is less potent than that of an positive-energy plane.

In this case, as I said, I'd leave it to the DM to decide whether they stack or not and move on - 'though my personal preference is for a non-stacking, it's not really something I'd want to spend a lot of time arguing over during a game (or on the internet, for that matter ).

 

[Dozen]

(or on the internet, for that matter ).

...I really hope you did not intend to say that as it sounded like in my head. In case you did, rest assured, while I have attention whore qualities, I am not a troll. There is a point to arguing with me, and please do.

Well you're welcome to interpret it however you like, but the fast healing feat is enough to tell me that some fast healing abilities don't stack with others.

The rules do not give us leeway over this. We know for a fact that Healing is not a bonus, we never used the term for it. We also know for a fact that only in cases of bonuses and penalties does 'stack' have a numeral meaning. I'm not spouting an opinion, these are cold rules as written. So what's your point?

Frankly, my main reason for not having it 'stack' is so a vivacious creature's positive energy aura is less potent than that of an positive-energy plane.

...I can't say I follow. Can you elaborate?

 

[Cleon]

...I really hope you did not intend to say that as it sounds like in my head. In case you did, rest assured, while I have attention whore qualities, I am not a troll. There is a point to arguing with me, and please do.

I apologize if that came off strongly, I wasn't intending to cast any aspersions. It's just I have a limited amount of time to play around on the internet at the moment.

The rules do not give us leeway over this. We know for a fact that Healing is not a bonus. We know for a fact that only bonuses and penalties can stack. So what's your point?

The problem with that argument is that the Epic Feat I referred to specifically describes one sort of fast healing as not stacking with other sorts of fast healing while it can stack with more fast healing of the same sort, so in at least some respects it can 'stack'.

Although, there are some cases where multiple applications of the same type of healing do not stack - if two doctors use Heal checks to give a character Long-Term Care the patient doesn't heal three times faster instead of the two-times faster normal for Long-Term Care do they? I don't think so, just like a patient can only receive one application of Quicken Recovery and Perfect Recovery a day.

The rules are not always 100% clear as to how fast healing stacks. If two effects "gives a creature creature fast healing X", does the creature end up with fast healing 2X or fast healing X?

My gut tells me that unless an effect explicitly says so either in the power writeup (e.g. "gives a creature fast healing X, or increases existing fast healing by X") or the RAW then I'd go with the more conservative option.

Basically, I'd go for whichever interpretation is the least open to exploitation. If the vivacious creature's Positive Energy Aura does stack, then sure as eggs as eggs some gamer somewhere is going to want a flock of hundreds of Fine-sized incorporeal vivacious creatures at their beck and call to give themselves free unlimited healing while making their enemies explode from excess positive energy.

...I can't say I don't follow. Can you elaborate?

Sure, the "positive-dominant environment" mentioned in the Positive Energy Aura description is a reference to the rules on planes (e.g. "Positive-Dominant" in the Elemental and Energy Traits). The Positive Energy Plane - e.g. an entire dimension made of nothing but positive energy - has a major positive-dominant trait, so it confers fast healing 5 on all beings within it. A minor-dominant plane confers fast healing 2.

A vivacious creature's Positive Energy Aura SQ confers the equivalent of a "fast healing 1" positive energy trait. I'd rather that a group of them doesn't generate an aura that heals faster than the plane their power originates from.

That reminds me, Vivacious Creatures are from the Positive Energy Plane aren't they? I'll just check...

...yup, Vivacious Creature is a template in the Planar Handbook, which says they "dwell on the Positive Energy Plane".

 

[Dozen]

...I'd rather that a group of them doesn't generate an aura that heals faster than the plane their power originates from...

And it doesn't^^! Neither did I suggest, the notion is silly. The auras themselves don't merge into one 'uber-aura'. They remain independent of each other. That doesn't make a part of the positive energy disappear into nothingness where the auras touch.
Think of it this way: One creature each emanates enough Positive Energy to heal a hit point a turn to any creature within. This means that in a given unit of volume within the Area of Effect, there are equal amounts of it regardless of distance, correct? Now, when another aura enters the range of the aforementioned aura or vice versa, it stands to reason the Positive Energy from both sources stay where they are supposed to be, the amount of energy from each being added up within the intersection. Where else would the energy go? Thus a creature who stands where the two intersect gets the benefits of both. So if you are on the Positive Energy Plane in close proximity of a vivacious creature, you get 6 hit points every turn, simple as that.

 

[Cleon]

And it doesn't^^! Neither did I suggest, the notion is silly. The auras themselves don't merge into one 'uber-aura'. They remain independent of each other. That doesn't make apart of the positive energy should disappear into nothingness where the auras touch.
Think of it this way: One creature each emanates enough Positive Energy to heal a hit point a turn to any creature within. This means that in each square within the Area of Effect, there are equal amounts of it regardless of distance, correct? Now, when another creature's aura enters the range of the aforementioned aura, it stands to reason that the Positive Energy from both sources stay where they are supposed to be, the amount of energy from each being added up within the intersection. Where else would the energy go? Thus a creature who stands where the two intersect gets the benefits of both. So if you are on the positive energy plane in close proximity of a viviacious creature, you heal 6 hit points every turn.

Well there are plenty of D&D phenomena where if there are multiple incidents of the same effect only the strongest is applied - one example being a cleric's ability to turn or rebuke undead. I'd just rather this Positive Energy Aura be one of them.

Since I think there's enough room for interpretation in the rules for it to go either way, I prefer a nonstacking version to a stacking one.

From my understanding of the 3E rules, the default is that abilities not to stack. So, unless the rules specify otherwise, I'd keep multiple Vivacious Creatures auras at only fast healing 1. I did a quick Google search and couldn't find a WoC FAQ on the issue. The best answer I found was this Multiple Fast Healing abilities from different source thread on Enworld, which boils down to "there is no official ruling, but stated 3E design principles suggest they do not stack".

I'd be OK having a creature on the positive energy plane getting fast healing 6 for being within range of a vivacious creature, although I think it'd be more likely to get fast healing 5 since the two instances of fast healing are essentially from the same source. What doesn't appeal to me is for them to get fast healing 25 for being within 20 vivacious creatures.

Anyhow, I fear we may be losing track of the OP:

Does the Positive Energy Aura of a Vivacious creature stack for someone if they standing within two or more Positive Energy Auras?

My stance on the question is still something like:

There doesn't appear to be an official answer to this question. The healing from Positive Energy Aura works like fast healing. Some sources of fast healing do not stack, but others do stack (e.g. the Fast Healing feat stacks with itself, but not with other sources).

I'd suggest the DM decide whether it stacks or not depending on what they think would be best for their game.

My preference is that it doesn't stack, under the general principal that abilities do not stack unless they explicitly says so.​