D&D 5E question about surprise

[BoldItalic]

They peeked through a crack in the door first.

... and saw monsters pretending to be casually unaware ...
... but didn't see the one with the loaded crossbow right next to the door ...
... who surprised them when they kicked the door down ...
... and fired just after the heavy stone block poised above the doorway ...
... dropped on the guy who kicked down the door ...
... releasing a cloud of deadly spores ...
...

Or alternatively, remove all the doors from the dungeon and replace them with portcullises.

 

[dmnqwk]

I definitely like the idea of allowing more contested rolls to determine surprise
Instead of the basic Stealth vs Perception, you could consider Sleight of hand vs Perception if the Doppelganger got a dagger ready to slam into the PC, or maybe Deception vs Insight if it was going to simply bite/push them down a flight of stairs.

When it comes to surprise round, think of it less as "awareness" and more about "is there sufficient time for the defender to both determine the intentions of the attack and react accordingly."
If it was as simple as "kicking a door in" to gain surprise, wouldn't the police simply storm a bank during a robbery? You have to include the time it takes the PCs to determine locations of the enemies and still find time to attack before the defenders can simply dive for cover. In the case of a Doppelganger, if it can deceive the target, there would barely be any way for the defendant to react appropriately, let alone work out the attack is coming.

Whenever you are looking to determine Surprise, you should consider both:
A) Does either side have sufficient knowledge of the other (such as location)
B) Can they react appropriately based on this knowledge.

You'll find while a PC kicking in the door meets B, it is the important A piece which really determines surprise.

 

[Maxperson]

You could also invoke the skills with different abilities variant rule from the PHB and have the dopplegangers engaging in stealth(int/cha/wis) rolls. Whichever you think is best.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

The PCs don't know whether or not the monsters are unsuspecting until you tell them. The monsters don't even exist until you announce that they are there and what they are doing, and that doesn't happen until the door is opened.

When they kick down the door, decide at that moment if you want your monsters to be surprised and narrate the situation accordingly. Regardless of what it might say in the module you are following, it's your choice whether, for example, the hobgoblin guards happen to be playing cards (surprised) or standing up ready to go on patrol (not surprised) and you don't have to decide that until the door is opened.

I'm not really a fan of playing that way. If you don't decide what happens before the players tell what they want to do, then there's no meaning to the player's decision. They only get rewarded because you decide they are or they get punished because you decide they should be.

I'd say always decide beforehand what will happen if the players rush into the room. Make it a good idea for some rooms and a bad idea for some other rooms. Then give players corresponding hints (in case they perceive/investigate at all) so they could theoretically figure out the right choice. That way it's up to how well the players play and not to whatever the DM wants.

 

[MerricB]

One of the reason classic D&D included stuck doors was to negate the surprise of the enemy. It's very hard to surprise the enemy when you bounce off the door first!

Note that the rule is that individual characters and monsters begin the combat surprised if they are unaware of ALL of the opponents. If they're aware of just one of them, they aren't surprised.

Cheers!

 

[Noctem]

Hi all,

The passage on determining surprise in the PHB (pg. 189) seems to me to suggest that surprise can only come up when one side is hidden from the other. It talks about using Stealth vs Perception to determine surprise.

But what about someone who is trying to be deceptive? What if you've got a doppelganger - which has several special abilities that key off surprise - posing as a friendly acquaintance in order to get close to a PC before attacking. Could the doppelganger gain surprise - perhaps with a successful Deception check vs the target's passive Insight score - even if the PC is technically aware of them? Most people don't expect their allies to attack them.

What do you guys think? Can someone be surprised even if they can technically see their attacker? Or do they actually have to be completely unaware of their attacker in order to be surprised?

The passage lists being hidden because it specifically explains how it works when neither side tries to hide or one side tries to hide or both. But surprise is assigned based on failure to notice a threat. It doesn't matter the situation at hand, if you fail to notice a threat before something prompts combat the DM may rule that you are surprised at the start of the encounter. Just remember that surprise is always DM fiat, they decide who is surprised and who is not.

As for the scenario you give with the doppleganger.. it would cause the PC's to be surprised because, before he attacks them, they failed to notice him as a threat. Also note that most doppleganger change shape abilities already do checks and opposing rolls so doing it again for the scenario isn't necessary imo. This is why people who say that the only way to gain surprise is via being hidden can't possibly be correct, we all know that you can be surprised even by people standing right in front of you in plain sight. And also please note that surprise can only be assigned during the first round of combat, afterwards surprise is no longer possible because combatants are "aware of their surroundings". So outside of DM fiat, if the doppleganger decides to switch sides mid combat, it would not cause anyone to be considered surprised. As the DM, I would give him advantage on his first attack just to represent the situation though if I felt it made sense. Example:

In last Batman movie, daughter of Ra's Al-ghul had been posing as an investor for Wayne's research into a power source for the city. She also seemed interested in him romantically. That is of course until, while standing right next to him after his battle with Bane, she stabs him with a knife. The look of complete surprise on Batman's face represents his failure to notice her as a threat until that moment. Imo, it's a great example that surprise is not limited to being granted because of someone you can't see is attacking you (while being hidden). It can happen even if the person is literally within arms reach.

 

[pedro2112]

The rules state that "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." So taking the Doppleganger (DG) example on the first page of this thread, even though they are aware there is a creature in front of them, they do not think they are a threat, so it is perfectly within RAW to say that the party is surprised when he attacks without notice. You can allow the PCs a insight, investigation or perception checks to notice something awry before the DG attacks, to allow them not to be auto-surprised.

 

[Maxperson]

The passage lists being hidden because it specifically explains how it works when neither side tries to hide or one side tries to hide or both. But surprise is assigned based on failure to notice a threat.

Correct, and if neither side is trying to be stealthy, noticing that threat is automatic. The sentence you are referring to doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's built upon the rules preceding it that specify how you notice the threat or not. Is a doppleganger being stealthy when it is shape shifted in plain sight? I would say yes, but to do so you have to invoke the alternate ability optional rule and allow stealth cha or int or something like that.

It doesn't matter the situation at hand, if you fail to notice a threat before something prompts combat the DM may rule that you are surprised at the start of the encounter. Just remember that surprise is always DM fiat, they decide who is surprised and who is not.

If a party is not trying to be stealthy, it is noticed automatically and you can't fail to notice the threat. It's not DM fiat, there are rules in place. Stealth or you are noticed. If stealth, then it is opposed by passive perception.

In last Batman movie, daughter of Ra's Al-ghul had been posing as an investor for Wayne's research into a power source for the city. She also seemed interested in him romantically. That is of course until, while standing right next to him after his battle with Bane, she stabs him with a knife. The look of complete surprise on Batman's face represents his failure to notice her as a threat until that moment. Imo, it's a great example that surprise is not limited to being granted because of someone you can't see is attacking you (while being hidden). It can happen even if the person is literally within arms reach.

I agree. However, if you want to do it in 5e, you need to allow stealth rolls with attributes other than dex, or a house rule.

 

[Flamestrike]

Hi all,

The passage on determining surprise in the PHB (pg. 189) seems to me to suggest that surprise can only come up when one side is hidden from the other. It talks about using Stealth vs Perception to determine surprise.

But what about someone who is trying to be deceptive? What if you've got a doppelganger - which has several special abilities that key off surprise - posing as a friendly acquaintance in order to get close to a PC before attacking. Could the doppelganger gain surprise - perhaps with a successful Deception check vs the target's passive Insight score - even if the PC is technically aware of them? Most people don't expect their allies to attack them.

What do you guys think? Can someone be surprised even if they can technically see their attacker? Or do they actually have to be completely unaware of their attacker in order to be surprised?

I would totally allow surprise in this situation.

As in: Initiative is rolled, and the surprised dude doesnt get to act on turn 1.

 

[Hriston]

Hi all,

The passage on determining surprise in the PHB (pg. 189) seems to me to suggest that surprise can only come up when one side is hidden from the other. It talks about using Stealth vs Perception to determine surprise.

But what about someone who is trying to be deceptive? What if you've got a doppelganger - which has several special abilities that key off surprise - posing as a friendly acquaintance in order to get close to a PC before attacking. Could the doppelganger gain surprise - perhaps with a successful Deception check vs the target's passive Insight score - even if the PC is technically aware of them? Most people don't expect their allies to attack them.

What do you guys think? Can someone be surprised even if they can technically see their attacker? Or do they actually have to be completely unaware of their attacker in order to be surprised?

The players don't determine whether a monster is a threat or not. The DM does. The players only determine whether their characters are a threat to the monsters. They do this when they attack. If surprise depended on asking the players whether their characters considered a monster to be a threat, the answer would always be yes. I doubt DMs are asking players if they feel threatened or recognize something as a threat before determining surprise, but otherwise how could you know what the character is thinking?

The DM already knows if a monster is going to attack. That's what makes a monster a threat. It doesn't matter whether the characters recognize it as a threat. It is either a threat or it isn't. In the example above, is the doppelgänger a threat? If it means to attack it most certainly is. Do the PCs notice the doppelgänger? If they do, they are not surprised.