Question for the mathematically inclined...

[Dagredhel]

Would a single attack (a bite) at 1d6 + 1-1/2 Str be comparable to a pair of attacks (2 claws) at 1d4 + 1/2 Str, or would you need to add something more to the single attack--- maybe bump up the crit multiplier (assuming x2 for both)--- if you wanted to achieve parity (make them equally good options?)

What I'd like to do would be to put together a "menu" of natural attack options that are more or less equivalent.

(I suppose I should also point out that bite attacks count as bludgeoning, slashing or piercing, while claws do only slashing or piercing, which I suppose gives the bite a slight additional edge.)

 

[Hejdun]

Would a single attack (a bite) at 1d6 + 1-1/2 Str be comparable to a pair of attacks (2 claws) at 1d4 + 1/2 Str, or would you need to add something more to the single attack--- maybe bump up the crit multiplier (assuming x2 for both)--- if you wanted to achieve parity (make them equally good options?)

Well, as there is a difference in strength modifiers, the answer will partially depend on what Strength we're talking about.

At lower strength, the two claws have a slight edge. Starting at a 16 Str, the bite has the advantage.

It's pretty simple math to figure out; you could do it in your head. The average of 1d6 is 3.5, the average of 2d4 is 5.

At a +1 str modifier, the bite does 1d6+1 (average 4.5) and the claws do 2d4 (average 5).
At a +2 str modifier, bite does 1d6+3 (6.5); claws 2d4+2 (7)
At a +3 str modifier, bite does 1d6+4 (7.5); claws 2d4+2 (7)
At a +4 str modifier, bite does 1d6+6 (9.5); claws 2d4+4 (9)

 

[DiceGolem]

And while the bite has the slight advantage of being all weapon types, you have to remember there are two attacks needed with the claws to make it comparable to one attack with a bite. If the bite misses, there's nothing that round, but two claws means that some damage could still be done if the first misses.

Not to mention that multiple attacks are better if you consider some of the offensive buffs available. Something that adds Str adds to the bite, but additional damage (fire, acid, and even sneak attacks) favor the two claws.

 

[Dagredhel]

Ah... I guess maybe I was thinking about it *backwards*... I was thinking of the paired attacks as two chances to miss, not to hit.

So... more or less even then?

 

[Slaved]

Why is the bite at one and a half strength while the claws are only at half strength?

 

[Hejdun]

Ah... I guess maybe I was thinking about it *backwards*... I was thinking of the paired attacks as two chances to miss, not to hit.

So... more or less even then?

Well, with two attacks, you're more likely to do some damage, which means that you are less likely to do no damage in a round. I'm not sure how you'd quantify that though. It'd also depend on your chance to hit.

But yeah, they're roughly even.

 

[Dagredhel]

Why is the bite at one and a half strength while the claws are only at half strength?

Given your question, perhaps because I erred?

From memory, I was assuming that a solo bite added 1-1/2 times Strength damage (like a two-handed weapon would) and (here is where I assume I screwed up) I had the claws at + 1/2 Strength because I'm used to seeing them as *secondary attacks*.

1d4 + (full) Strength for both, if the claws are the primary attack? (And did I at least get the bite right, or did I goof that, too?)

What is the probability of hitting with the second claw, assuming the chance of hitting with the first claw is the same as hitting with the bite?

 

[Archimedes314]

Well, as there is a difference in strength modifiers, the answer will partially depend on what Strength we're talking about.

At lower strength, the two claws have a slight edge. Starting at a 16 Str, the bite has the advantage.

It's pretty simple math to figure out; you could do it in your head. The average of 1d6 is 3.5, the average of 2d4 is 5.

At a +1 str modifier, the bite does 1d6+1 (average 4.5) and the claws do 2d4 (average 5).
At a +2 str modifier, bite does 1d6+3 (6.5); claws 2d4+2 (7)
At a +3 str modifier, bite does 1d6+4 (7.5); claws 2d4+2 (7)
At a +4 str modifier, bite does 1d6+6 (9.5); claws 2d4+4 (9)

But your math ignores the probability of actually hitting the opponent and extra damage from criticals. The formula for the average damage for a single attack is:

.05*f(20-((AC-AB)-1))*(Avg(D)+B)+.05(T-(T'-1))(C-1)(.05*f(20((AC-AB)-1)))*(Avg(D)+B'))

Where f(x) is defined such that for x<1, f(x)=1, for 1<x<20, f(x)=x, and for x>20, f(x)=19, AC is your opponent's AC, AB is your attack bonus, Avg(D) is the average of the dice damage of the attack, B is any bonus damage, T is the top number of your critical threat range, T' is the bottom number, C is your critical multiplier, and B' is any bonus damage except for variable damage (such as from sneak attack or a flaming enhancment). The formula for average damage for multiple attacks if they have the same attack bonus, critical threat range, and multiplier is:

(.05*f(20-((AC-AB)-1)))^N*N(Avg(D)+B)+(.05(T-(T'-1))(C-1))^N*(.05*f(20((AC-AB)-1)))^N*N(Avg(D)+B'))

Where N is the number of attacks.

 

[Slaved]

Given your question, perhaps because I erred?

From memory, I was assuming that a solo bite added 1-1/2 times Strength damage (like a two-handed weapon would) and (here is where I assume I screwed up) I had the claws at + 1/2 Strength because I'm used to seeing them as *secondary attacks*.

1d4 + (full) Strength for both, if the claws are the primary attack? (And did I at least get the bite right, or did I goof that, too?)

What is the probability of hitting with the second claw, assuming the chance of hitting with the first claw is the same as hitting with the bite?

From what I understand a creatures primary natural weapon is at strength and a half it is only one attack and at strength if it is two. So if the guy has two claws as primary then they will both be at full strength while the bite would be at strength and a half.

If you look at the troll it has two claws as primary with full strength and a bite as secondary with half strength.