Question For Viking Experts
fusangite said:
I stand corrected on the Vend- issue, but Swedish vikings had an extensive trade with the middle east region. They have found a lot of arabian silver coins on the island of Gotland east of Sweden. But for specifically Byzantines, I am pretty much in the dark, so it is very possible that you are right on that.
tarchon
First Post
The Rus/Varangians traded extensively with the Byzantines through Eastern Europe and the Black Sea. The emperor's personal guard was at one time recruited from Varangian mercenaries, and hence came to be known as the Varangian guard, even after they'd largely ceased to be actual Varangians. Even today, one can find runic graffiti carved in the stones of the Hagia Sophia. The medieval Arab authors Ibn Rustah and Ibn Fadlan also give interesting and detailed accounts of the Varangians. Ibn Fadlan's became the basis for Michael Crichton's <i>Eaters of the Dead</i> (the film version was <i>the 13th Warrior</i>). From the other side, Icelandic sagas include numerous tales of Vikings (even Icelanders) who went to Byzantium to make some cash serving in the VG.fusangite said:
The depth of the contribution of Vikings to Russian and Eastern European culture is debatable, but there is no doubt at all that they were there and exercised considerable political and economic influence while they were.
tarchon says
The Rus and the Varingians are two separate groups. Although The Primary Chronicle claims that the Rus were a Scandinavian tribe, virtually all mainstream historical opinion is now that only the founding royal family were Scandinavian in origin. Apparently the Rus were not, contrary to their own founding myth, nordic at all. They were, in fact, a Slavic people all along.
This is true. However, you'll note I said the Byzantines had "little direct contact" with the Scandinavians. Not "no direct contact." I agree that the Varingians were viewed as an object of occidental curiosity, rather like what the Germani had represented to the early Romans.
I don't minimize the contribution that trade with the Vikings made to the Orthodox world; however, a key feature of the Kiev state was its control of the transit trade. A shockingly small portion of the actual trade was carried out by Varingians. However, I do agree there was certainly also some direct cultural interpenetration.
The Rus and the Varingians are two separate groups. Although The Primary Chronicle claims that the Rus were a Scandinavian tribe, virtually all mainstream historical opinion is now that only the founding royal family were Scandinavian in origin. Apparently the Rus were not, contrary to their own founding myth, nordic at all. They were, in fact, a Slavic people all along.
This is true. However, you'll note I said the Byzantines had "little direct contact" with the Scandinavians. Not "no direct contact." I agree that the Varingians were viewed as an object of occidental curiosity, rather like what the Germani had represented to the early Romans.
I don't minimize the contribution that trade with the Vikings made to the Orthodox world; however, a key feature of the Kiev state was its control of the transit trade. A shockingly small portion of the actual trade was carried out by Varingians. However, I do agree there was certainly also some direct cultural interpenetration.
Umbran said:
It is because the people who 'translated' the names of the days of the week from Latin into English couldn't think of an English god who was equivalent to the Roman Saturn.
Sol => the Sun
Luna => the Moon
Mars => Tiwaz
Mercury => Woden
Jupiter => Thor
Venus => Freya
Saturn => ?who can tell?
Some of the identifications are pretty strange. You would think that Jupiter ought to map either to Tiwaz (the original Indo-European sky father) or Woden (the later ruler of the gods), but to Romans Jupiter's character as the Thunderer was too conspicuous to overlook. And mapping Mercury to Woden because they both (as minor functions) escort the sould of the dead to the underworld smacks of desperation.
In case anyone is interested, the names of the weekdays are originally based on Babylonian or Chaldean astrology: the days were named after the five known planets and the Sun and Moon. The Romans adopted the seven-day week only in Christian times, by when they weren't too worried about the fact that they had named the planets for pagan gods. And the rather fanciful identifications of German gods with Roman gods were also well-established by that time.
Regards,
Agback
Frostmarrow
First Post
Liquide said:
This is a long shot but what if Saturday comes from saturation day. The day to get your gear soaking wet.
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
Umbran said:
This would be my point, that the monastary system of the British isles pre-Viking period appears to have been built with the idea that all their real threats would come from their neighbors and not from the sea.
In areas which feature anti-clerical sea raiders monastaries get built on top of nasty rock formations. Which would be the pattern of Italian and Greek monastaries built during periods when Muslim raiders were a great danger.
Certainly Sea-raiding was something that the British isles had seen before. St. Patrick was carried off by Pirates as a boy, for instance, and there are some writers who claim the angles and saxons started out as sea raiders.
But I think there must have been a pretty sharp distinction between the pre- and post- Viking periods. The monastaries that recorded these raids had been in existence for some time and seemed to be totally surprised by the frequency, effectiveness, and suddenness of the raiding. Lindisfarne even rebuilt itself without any significant defenses after the first raid destroyed it. A move that indicates some basic familiarity with the situation, nothing freaky enough to cause a real behavioural change, but also no idea of what the age had coming for them.
Regardless, I imagine that there are some aspects of Viking period Scandanavian culture that you could apply to the late Roman periods.
Obsession with death in battle, farm steadings and forts as opposed to towns and villas, a slightly more empowered femine gender save in the instances of slaves or strangers, lots of gift giving, hospitality laws, magic based on secret knowledge, respect for craftsmen, and small scale but diverse agriculture. A more or less democratic society which also recognized great men and slaves. Very likely elected kings for special purposes and then got rid of them.
Most of the artifacts involving actual horned helmets come from pre-Viking scandanavia. On the same note you could throw in lots of set pieces involving bog rituals and sacrafice.
Dr. Strangemonkey said:
Okay, well, at least in my reading of your original point, that didn't come through at all. You mentioned that coastal rading stopped, but did not directly state that inland raiding continued. Thus the confusion. Thanks for the clarification.
Not really, considering that one culture's (usually incomplete and inaccurate) perception of another's religion usually changes drastically over time (usually into something different, but just as incomplete and inaccurate). Today, for example, Jupiter's role as "the thunderer" is largely forgotten by us.
Desdichado
Hero
Yeah, but ironically, that probably wasn't his original incarnation either, if you accept that Jupiter is a descendent of the Proto-Indo-European *dyaus piter who wasn't a thunderer either.Umbran said:
Jupiter seems to be a combination of PIE thunderer and PIE sky-father, which were too different entities originally. In Germanic, they surive as Thor/Donner and Tiwaz -- a relatively obscure entity in mythology who somehow still managed to get his name attached to a day of the week.Then again, just because he's obscure in the mythology doesn't mean he was obscure from a worship standpoint, I suppose... Although now I'm completely speculating about stuff I don't know.
