Question on Tactics (Thunderspire Spoilers)

[legiondevil]

At the end of the fights in the Well of Demons, the players enter into a combat with Malderik Scarmaker (At least I think that's his name, I don't have my book open at the moment). Scarmaker has several allies in the fight, and the terrain is riddles with bubbling cauldrons (which are noted as doing 5d10 damage to people that end up inside them).

Scarmaker has an ability that causes its target to levitate five feet in the air until the end of his next turn. My questions revolve around tactical use of this ability and his allies.

Obviously, this power can be used against the PC's. That's the give-in. But, while the PC is held in the air, can an enemy attempt to Bull Rush them to move them around?

And, if so, can the PC be Bull Rushed into the square above the cauldron? Would this allow a save, as the PC isn't entering a hazardous square at that exact moment? They'd just be falling into one at the end of Scarmakers next turn.

And then, would they be allowed a save during the fall, to stop themselves from plunking down into the bubbling...goop...in the cauldron?

Obviously they'd be subject to the tentacle attacks from the things in the cauldron while held above it. But my questions are more in concern to the tactical implications of what exactly can be done to a PC that's being held in the air.

 

[Kordeth]

Without having the specific text of the power in question in front of me, I see no reason this wouldn't work. I'd put the hazardous terrain save when the player falls, and either have him land prone in an adjacent square of his choice or land precariously balanced on the lip of the cauldron (and effectively prone for mechanical purposes), based entirely on which seemed cooler at the time.

 

[legiondevil]

Without having the specific text of the power in question in front of me, I see no reason this wouldn't work.

I went ahead and picked my lazy bum up and went to the game room to pick up the book to type out the effects of the power.

Infernal Moons Curse
[sblock]
Encounter: +13 vs. Fortitude; 2d8+8 poison damage, and the target is held immobilized 5 feet off the ground until the end of Maldrick's next turn.
[/sblock]

Cauldrons
[sblock]
Any character fool enough to climb into a cauldron is roasted in the strange liquid that boils within. A character takes 5d10 damage upon entering or starting its turn in the boiling liquid.
[/sblock]

I suppose the question now is, while being immobilized means that YOU cannot move...can you be subject to forced movement?

 

[Gruns]

Yes

I suppose the question now is, while being immobilized means that YOU cannot move...can you be subject to forced movement?

The quick answer is Yes. PHB 277

Later!
Gruns

 

[Danceofmasks]

Not that it's relevant here (since the PC will fall when the effect wears off), but falling is not forced movement ... so immobilising people in the air usually suspends them.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Not that it's relevant here (since the PC will fall when the effect wears off), but falling is not forced movement ... so immobilising people in the air usually suspends them.

From my reading of the thread, its eveyone's unerstanding that they wouldn't fall until the levitate effect ended.

That said, if falling isn't forced movement, then why should they get a save to avoid falling into the boiling pots? My understanding was that you only get a save if forced movement moves you into hazardous terrain...


Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, IMO being pushed over a boiling pot is equivalent to being pushed off a cliff.
Either is over a hazardous fall ... so the PC would get a save and be prone in the air.

So my call would be, no save from the falling, but save from the initial bull rush attempt.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Does bring up an interesting point - does hazardous terrain count as hazaroud terrain even if it isn't in fact hazardous to the person being moved?

For example, does a fire pit count as hazardous terrain if the creature is immune to fire? What if it isn't immune but simply has a sufficiently high resistance?

What if the terrain isn't typically hazarous, but is for the particular creature being pushed - for example, a creature that takes damage on contact with sunlight being pushed out a shadow?

Third related question is the one at hand - what if the terrain isn't immediately hazarous, but may be at some other time? In this case, a creature being pushed over a pot into which it will fall at some later point.

Related, what if the creature is pushed into a space that may or may not become harzardous at some point - say, a flying creature is pushed over the pot, and really is in no danger unless then subjected to an effect that knocks it to the ground. A similar example would be pushed into a trapped square of a trap that either attacks a random trapped square, or that hits squares in a certain sequence.

Don't have my books with me - do they give a definition of hazardous terrain that is illuminative?


Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear

 

[Danceofmasks]

Short answer?
No.

I've actually seen a PC go, "I want a save. There's no way I'm being pushed in this direction unless there's a hidden pit trap. I want a save!"

 

[Kordeth]

From my reading of the thread, its eveyone's unerstanding that they wouldn't fall until the levitate effect ended.

That said, if falling isn't forced movement, then why should they get a save to avoid falling into the boiling pots? My understanding was that you only get a save if forced movement moves you into hazardous terrain...

DM adjudication, common sense, and fair ruling. Although falling into a vat of boiling goo might not be considered "forced movement into hazardous terrain," the PC is being levitated, then bull rushed into a position where they will fall into a vat of boiling goo. That, IMHO, certainly fits the spirit of "characters forced into a hazardous square get to make a save." And it's just cooler, more suspenseful, and thematically appropriate in this case to give them the save when they fall, thereby allowing them to catch the lip of the pot and balance precariously or else fall right into the goo than it is to give them a save to just keep hanging in midair. It really doesn't change anything.