Question regarding wielding weapons (Monk specifically)

[Enclave]

Is it possible to wield a spear in your main hand and a club in your off hand without taking the two weapon fighting feat?

For instance, you can make a Wizard and wield a staff in each hand even without dual implement casting, you just don't get a bonus to having both implements being wielded.

Now, I would think you could do what I'm suggesting, the only thing is though that you wouldn't actually be able to attack with the club since it's not an off hand weapon. However if you're technically still wielding it wouldn't the feat Crashing Tempest Style still work?

See, I was considering taking both Crashing Tempest Style and Pointed Step Style. I'd keep the spear in my main hand to use as my implement to increase the range of my Flurry of Blows to 2 squares instead of 1, and I'd keep the club in my off hand to get the +2 damage bonus on my flurry of blows.

Should it work even if the Character Builder doesn't allow it? I know the Character Builder does have flaws in it after all.

 

[Mort_Q]

Some people take the text for the description of Off-hand, and the Ranger Two-Blade Fighting Style, to mean that you can't do what you're suggesting.

Off-Hand: An off-hand weapon is light enough that you can hold it and attack effectively with it while holding a weapon in your main hand. You can’t attack with both weapons in the same turn, unless you have a power that lets you do so, but you can attack with either weapon.

Two-Blade Fighting Style: Because of your focus on two-weapon melee attacks, you can wield a one-handed weapon in your off hand as if it were an off-hand weapon. (Make sure to designate on your character sheet which weapon is main and which is off-hand.) In addition, you gain Toughness as a bonus feat.

The rule is implicit, not explicit. You can't use two weapons unless you have powers that say so, so I'd allow it.

Discussed more in this thread.

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

Talking about a monk and talking about pretty much any other class are very different animals here. I agree with Mort above in that if you don't have the Ranger feature or an off-hand weapon, you can not wield both weapons as weapons. That being said, your Monk is using them as implements and there is no such thing as an offhand implement.

Whether I would allow this as a DM kinda depends on the situation. If I'm running an LFR mod and someone comes to the table with this, I'm going to allow it. LFR is pretty much all about the combat, so do whatever you can to enjoy it and twink away. If I'm running my own campaign, though, I'd find it a bit cheesy for my taste and rule that you can either get the +2 damage OR the extra reach, but not both from the same attack since I believe the intent was to provide two different combat styles.

I would consider sending him (or her) on some kind of quest to find a weapon that is both a club and spear because, really, I don't want to take away the fun and I can see how the combination could be a unique and flavorful thing with a little backstory behind it.

 

[Artoomis]

I would not allow it, and don't think it is allowed by the rules.

I believe "Wield" means to have it in hand and be able to actually employ it normally. I don't think you can "wield" a club in your off-hand when you have used a spear, for you cannot both use the spear and be able to use the club at the same time.

 

[Mort_Q]

I agree with Mort below in that if you don't have the Ranger feature or an off-hand weapon, you can not wield both weapons as weapons.

I never said that... I said "some people" take that text to mean that... personally, I don't think that something you'd never read if you weren't interested in playing a Ranger qualifies as a rule... and it's not like ignoring it breaks anything.

That being said, your Monk is using them as implements and there is no such thing as an offhand implement.

Fair enough.

Though I would point out that you can't use monk unarmed strike unless you have a hand free... not that that matters that much.

 

[Artoomis]

...That being said, your Monk is using them as implements and there is no such thing as an offhand implement...

Well, not really, it could be used as a weapon (basic attack) or other power(implement) and the club is not defined as to how it is used (weapon or implement) for the Flurry.

 

[Enclave]

Well, not really, it could be used as a weapon (basic attack) or other power(implement) and the club is not defined as to how it is used (weapon or implement) for the Flurry.

See, that's the thing that has me thrown off on this. I know I'd not be able to use it to make basic attacks, also I'd be a bit iffy on even if I could use it as an implement. However Flurry of Blows doesn't use a weapon, the feat simply requires you to be wielding a club.

Now, can you wield a club if you hold it in your off hand even if you won't be able to use it as an implement or for basic attacks? Basically, can you wield something even if it's not going to be able to be used, does that still count as wielding.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

See, that's the thing that has me thrown off on this. I know I'd not be able to use it to make basic attacks, also I'd be a bit iffy on even if I could use it as an implement. However Flurry of Blows doesn't use a weapon, the feat simply requires you to be wielding a club.

Now, can you wield a club if you hold it in your off hand even if you won't be able to use it as an implement or for basic attacks? Basically, can you wield something even if it's not going to be able to be used, does that still count as wielding.

No, to wield a weapon (or implement) you would legally have to be able to attack with it.

The most generous reading of the rules is that you can hold a non-offhand weapon in each hand, but its just an 'object' since you can't wield it and you won't gain any benefits from it. You can decide which of these two IS being wielded at any time, but can't count both at once and can't gain any benefits that rely on wielding a weapon in each hand, etc. You can't even count the properties of both of them as being in effect at the same time. Now, if one or the other counts as an implement then things are different since implements don't follow the off-hand restriction.

Things get a bit tricky with monks since they can treat weapons as ki-foci and those are technically implements, but this is going to be dependent on exactly which feats and powers you're talking about. There's no real GENERAL rule there.