Questions about NWoD (necro from Oct 05)

[Lokishadow]

Wow, Thanks!

For everyone that filled me in, thanks a lot! I'll give it a shot, but I've always had a problem with every RPG system I've gotten my hands on. None of them work perfectly. I like to say that it's an "attempt at a reasonable facsimilie of a fantastic reality." Think about that before you laugh, please.

See, I know quite a bit about martial arts, as well as real-world combat (time spent in Japan, the US Marines). There are so many ramifications to a process as basic as combat (in the RPG sense) that what it really boils down to is: dice cannot duplicate reality in any way.

Now, of all the myriad systems I've dinked with (D&D, AD&D 1 & 2, d20, oWoD, d6 Star Wars, Last Unicorn Star Trek, Champions {UURRRGGGHHHH!!!!}, Palladium, Rifts, TMNT, TWERPS {don't laugh, please}, BattleTech, Shadowrun), oWoD had this nice variability that sort of reflected the process of dramatic realism. It also gave us the ability to InstaKill, which is nice. After all, I can jam a man's nose-bone into his brain and drop him dead with a single well-placed strike. Why can't my char, who's obviously far superior to me in martial arts?

Botches I've solved...at least, acceptably, IMO. They don't eat successes, but if you roll no successes and there is a one showing, KYAGB. (translation: Kiss Your *edited* Good-Bye)

But in d20, you sit there and pound on the enemy. And pound on him. And pound on him. Rinse and repeat, ad nauseum. ARGH!!! I'm a frickin' 17th level monk, fighting a 10th level Fighter! It shouldn't take this long for Shao Zin Yeng to eat him for lunch, but no! Despite being one of the foremost martial arts masters ON THE PLANET, Shao Zin Yeng has to go through an hour-and-a-half long battle to whittle this guy down to zero hp, and I still run the risk of getting killed myself! Why? Because fighter's can have weapon specialization, and I can't! Even though I'm a friggin' 8th degree black belt (figuratively speaking), he has a better total attack bonus, and a higher average damage output.

Yes, it is fun. And yes, Shao would probably win. But a tenth level fighter is nothing to sneeze at. They're friggin' dangerous, from a statistical standpoint. Enough dragons in 1st Ed. found that out from me. Yes, I have about a dozen confrimed dragon kills. With a 10th (or lower) level fighter.

I suppose that's the problem (sorry for the rant). Numbers. Too much a flat line progression, not enough bell-curve. No chaos theory, no skew factor, just plain old statistics.

That said, I still find d20 a lot of fun. My personal favorite is d20 Modern. Nice little insta-kill rule in there, makes everything even out.

What does all this really boil down to? Where was I going with this? The rolling of oWoD allows the skew factor and chaos theory to "fill in the realism" for you. NWoD seems to reduce everything to a numbers game...just like D&D. D&D has it's place. It is fun. I just prefer the edginess of oWoD.

And, once again, thanks for the input. I may actually give NWoD a whirl. I certainly won't knock it again until I've tried it.

If anyone wants to work with me on building a d20 conversion of Werewolf, Vampire, or Mage, drop me a line at:
thaddeus_wyckoff@yahoo.com

I only check it about once a week, so don't stress if you don't hear back right away.
-Loki

 

[Blaque]

This is going to be long. Sorry for the ranting

First off, if you want to get the full rules on how the NWoD die-mechanic works, you need to get the World of Darkness core rulebook. There are all teh details of die-mechanics and whatnot.

Another thing, is that NWoD shouldn't be seen as an update. It is a new game that happens to have a lot of simaller takes on things from the old. But you should sit and read the die-mechanic, as it is different.

Here's the basics, just to repeat:
- Dice pool is Attribute + Skill + Specialties + Equipment
- Circumstance modifiers add or subtract from this.
- Roll. If any dice show 8 or above, you succeed.

There are some variations on this:
- 10-again - When you roll a 10 on a die, you get to reroll it. It counts as a success, and if the result on the second roll is 8 or higher, you get another success. If its 10 again, you get to reroll for an additional success again until it sotps being a 10.
- Exceptional Success - If you roll 5 or more successes on a single roll, you get some perks from it, like stunning a guy you hit some, or whatnot.
- Chance Die - If you have penalites that reduce your dice pool to 0 or less, you get a chance die. Roll a single die. If it is a 10, you get a success, and get 10-again as normal. If you get a 1, you get a dramatic failure, which is basically a botch. Everything else is a normal failure.

In this system, outside of dramatic failures form a chance die, you never botch. More detail son this is in the WoD Coreobok.

Another thing you have to go into the games knowing is that these are not Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage 4th Edition. They don't assume the previous games have ever existed. And as one goes through Vampire, Werewolf, and finally, Mage, they become progressivley more utterly unlike the previous game they draw their names from. Just some ideas:

Vampire: the Requiem
First off is the fact that Requiem is much more mysteirous then Masquerade overall. No ancient can know all, since as the ages past, their memories decay. As a result, no one knows what really is going on with their origins and there is no unified mythology like with the Cainite myth of Masquerade.

Power is based on age, not on Embrace. There's no Antedeluvian-type beings manipulating your actions in a graeat jyhad. The elders have plans, but they know that some night, torpor will hit them, and they're screwed. In fact, overall, the power strucutre is very mercurial, as you will eventually equal the elders, and the elders will go into torpor and weaken.

Another hting is thematics of gothic horror before new powers. The Clans are based on very basic vampire archeotypes, rather hten "How can we pad to be 13 of them?" Bloodlines then draw on these archeotypes. The Clans themselves have powers based mostly on classic vampire myth. Powers to strike fear, hide, control animals and men, supernatural physical prowess, ect. Exotic powers such as manipulating shadows, fleshcrafting, blood alchemy, and whatnot are now the perview of bloodlines, which have codified rules now.

Folks might complain about the lack of some of the clans, but you ahve to note that there was a large purge of a lot of bloodlines in Masquerade. Requiem is the consolidation of this. You don't need 13 clans. All have aspects that are now found in the 5 Requiem ones. Less is more, IMHO, since now Clan also has really nothing to do on your ideology.

Werewolf: the Forsaken
This is where things start going really different. Gaia, the Triat, the Apocalypse, the spirt world dying, the "spiritual deadzone" of cities, Fera, all of those are gone. Werewolf went straight back into being a horror game, not an environmental morals one.

The first thing to note is that the origins. Uratha, the werewolves of Forsaken, claim descent from Luna in a human form and Father Wolf, the great wofl-incarna which patrolled the once-united spirit and flesh. However, as Father Wolf grew old, and weak, the Uratha felt it was their place ot take his role. They murdered him, seperating the Material and Shadow. Luna cursed them in her spite. And the spirit world has never forgiven them.

There's no warriors of Gaia, protecting the world. There's no great nation, united by kings, or common idea of protection. Hell, not all Uratha think Father Wolf should of ever died. A game of werewolf is about your pack first. Your territory first. Your life first. The guys down the other side of town? Their territory having issues? Do you need to hlep them? Not really. In fact, if they can't handle it, maybe you should take it from the peons, since htey can't handle it.

The spirit world is no longer a place for friends either. In Apocalypse, you could assume a trip through the forests was pelasant. Tree spirits were always wise, rabbit spirits friendly. The urban landspcape was dead and calicified. And there were huge other worlds othere htere in the Umbra.

The Shadow is different. The city is just as alive as the woods, if not more. Farari spirits hunt mini van spirits on the streets. The spirit of a new store eats money and desire spirits. Hell, if you aren't careful, it might eat you. That rabbit spirit? It gets more powerful form eating other rabbit spirits. Everything is Darwinistic in there. Everything is alive. Nothing careas about anything by its own spiritual perview, its own existance, and its own ability to gain power.

Sometimes these come over. The Ridden aren't fomori or drones. Anything can be made into one. A fox spirit might possess someone, and make them run to death, becaue its never known what its like to have two legs before. The rabbit spirit might posess a human to go and killr abbit hunters, or all the cats in a neighborhood, 'cause it friggn' hates them. A shadow spirit merges with a girl who's always been ignored, and reeks havoc on a school campus.

In this the only friends a werewolf are a totem, often gained through violence, or bribary. The Incarna of their tribes, who are very distant. The Lunes of the various Luanr choirs, who are mad and dangerous. And your packmates. You can't rely on your neighboors. You only hav eyour pakcmates and these allies. And that's life as an Uratha.

Really cool I think. Now, I'll note, I have a good 40+ W:tA books. Forsaken is, strictly, I think, the better game. I love Apocalypse, but Forsaken shines as far as a game.

Mage: the Awakening
If any game can claim to be new, this is it. The world doesnt' work the same. The metaphysics don't work the same. The game is simply put, different. Its not about some fight for the laws of reality. Reality has its laws, whether humans know or believe in them or not. Magic isn't consentual, its symbolic. Its not that all paradigms are true, its that different mortal magical practices tap into the One Truth.

Ascension was about the fight for Reality. Awakening is about the quest to understand it. You just have to go into it not expecting an updated Mage. They didn't go "How can we make a beter Mage: the Ascension?'. They went in thinking how to make a new game about Mages. And that's all.

So there's my tyraid on the whole thing. I'm a pretty big fan of both OWoD (I didn't get non-Exalted or WoD books until this year, five years after I started gaming.) And if you want ot try osmething new, different and a more hoenst-to-goodness horror game then the previous games ever were IMHO, you should give them a look.

I will vouch I htink Werewolf is the best of 'em though

Stuff.

 

[jdrakeh]

This is going to be long. Sorry for the ranting

First off, if you want to get the full rules on how the NWoD die-mechanic works, you need to get the World of Darkness core rulebook. There are all teh details of die-mechanics and whatnot.

It is worth noting that said rule book is available for free at Drivethru RPG right now.

Another thing, is that NWoD shouldn't be seen as an update. It is a new game that happens to have a lot of simaller takes on things from the old.

That's a really important point - the new World of Darkness isn't a relaunch of the old, but an entirely new game that merely took the best bits of the old and dumped the bad (or what was widely perceived as bad by the core purchasing audience, anyhow).

I've actually used the new World of Darkness core rule book (it is mortals only investigative horror) to replace Call of Cthulhu in my gaming library. My World of Cthulhu rule supplement and a kick-ass custom character sheet (designed by Mr. Gone) can be found here:

http://www.menchhofer.com/chris/misc.html

 

[Umbran]

Most folks here are pretty much on the money.

There's one thing in all this that I don't feel is an advance - the morality system.

Each character - normal human, vampire, werewolf, mage, it doesn't matter. Has some variation of a Morality trait, rated one to 10. Normal folks start at 7. 10 is the Bhudda, 1 is a deranges psychopath who feels no remorse for committing mass murder.

Each morality has a view of the universe that includes some form of sin agains the morality - like theft, murder, and so on. Each sin has a rating - if your character commits a sin that is rated as beign beneath them, they have to roll some dice (the number varies based un a few vactors - what the sin is, your character's Virtue, etc) to see if they lose a point of morality. If they do lose the point, they have to roll another set of dice to see if they pick up a "derangement" - in this system, the friction between how you behave and how you should behave is a source of mental illness.

The upshot - if a normal starting character steals a chapstik, they have a roughly three percent chance of developing clinical depression or some similar ailment.

It gets a bit worse when you interpret the rules strictly - as far as I can tell, the rule is that every time you commit a sin, you have to make the rolls. Note that whacking someone with intent to hurt them is a sin. Strictly speaking, if you're a normal joe, you're rolling each and every time you hit in combat, until such time as your morality slips low enough to allow you to do it with impunity. Combat may or may not be deadly physically, but it sure isn't healthy psychologically.

I generally don't like mechanics that inflict behavior changes upon characters. It goes against my sense that the PCs should have free will. At least in D&D, the behavior determines the alignment. In this system, the alignment is set, and if you deviate from it, your behavior tends to change (and you go nuts in the process). It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[jdrakeh]

Most folks here are pretty much on the money.

There's one thing in all this that I don't feel is an advance - the morality system.

Yeah, the whole 'sinful beahvior = madness' thing didn't sit well with me for a lot of reasons (from imposing a religion-specific worldview on the game, to ignoring people such as soldiers who kill for a living, but don't always end up as blabbering psychopaths).

I did away with this in World of Cthulhu, and implemented a Sanity system based loosely on that found in Call of Cthulhu (based on horrible things encountered) with a bit more emphasis on 'madness = warped perception of reality' as opposed to 'madness = axe-wielding maniac'.

 

[Testament]

The only bug I've ecnountered in nWoD is this: the attacker wins. Almost universally. It shows up the most in V:tR as far as I can see, especially when we take a look at the things where we first noticed it, Haven Security, Nightmare and Dominate.

In the case of Haven Security, lets say we have a rating of 5 in it, which is supposedly a rutting fortress. A smart (3) and skilled (3 in security) vamp, with a good toolkit (equip bonus of 2) tries to get in. He's still got three dice, and only needs one success. Screw that noise, by that, an experienced locksmith can break into Fort Knox without a great deal of trouble!

Dominate and Nightmare are even worse, since you're adding a skill, a stat AND your Discipline level to it in an opposed roll against ONE stat, and Blood Potency. A starting vampire who isn't optimised in any way can hit a pool of 8 with ease in any of these, with a resisted pool of MAYBE 4. Its way too easy for the Nosferatu to walk into the room, leave everyone paralysed with fear and cut their throats. Or for the Neonate to walk up to an elder and say "SHINE MY SHOES BITCH!" and it work. And then modify their memories to get away with it.

The fix we've applied is for resistances to be maxed in a lot of situations, including combat (otherwise its "iniative wins"). You want to break into the Security 5 haven, you need five successes. You want to command someone with Dominate, or leave them cowering in blind panic, you need to get as many successes as they have resistance. In our experience, it works well, and actually means that Security is a worthwhile investment in BGs.

 

[Staffan]

It gets a bit worse when you interpret the rules strictly - as far as I can tell, the rule is that every time you commit a sin, you have to make the rolls. Note that whacking someone with intent to hurt them is a sin. Strictly speaking, if you're a normal joe, you're rolling each and every time you hit in combat, until such time as your morality slips low enough to allow you to do it with impunity. Combat may or may not be deadly physically, but it sure isn't healthy psychologically.

I recall seeing one of the designers (could be Eyebeams over on that gimongous Mage thread we had a while ago) recommending that you treat sins/morality loss on a per-scene level. So after each scene, you'd check for morality violations, using the worst action in that scene.

 

[Umbran]

I recall seeing one of the designers (could be Eyebeams over on that gimongous Mage thread we had a while ago) recommending that you treat sins/morality loss on a per-scene level. So after each scene, you'd check for morality violations, using the worst action in that scene.

Yes, that's one obvious fix. Even more obvious would be, "Don't use that sub-system," because I'm not sure I likeit even on a by-scene basis.

My diappointment is with the system as written, not with the system after I patch it up to my liking. As I said - I am not generally fond of systems that force behavior changes onto PCs. I accept sanity rules for Cthulhu-type horror because sanity loss really is central to the genre. And if they'd decided to play this as horror, and make this a sanity system, I might have accepted it without much argument. I don't feel loss of sanity for fighting the good fight is not central to this genre.

I hope I don't begin to see the "attacker wins" behavior that Testament sees. I would hope that the authors would, as part of reworking the dice mechanics, have seen it and corrected for it.

 

[SWBaxter]

See, I know quite a bit about martial arts, as well as real-world combat (time spent in Japan, the US Marines). There are so many ramifications to a process as basic as combat (in the RPG sense) that what it really boils down to is: dice cannot duplicate reality in any way.

Duplication isn't really the goal in any RPG (at least, not any of the ones I've seen), some brand of modelling is more what they aim for. Based on your stated preferences, I'm not sure you'll like the NWoD rules as much, because they're aimed specifically at streamlining play and moving a lot of the complexities of combat into modifiers and narrative. IMHO, the NWoD rules are far superior to the previous versions, but that's because my personal preference is for mechanically clean systems that play quickly.

So far as your preferences go, if you like WoD-style die pools and detailed combat, you might want to take a look at "The Riddle of Steel". It uses a die pool system, and is written by a student of Renaissance martial arts to be as close to the fighting styles he practices as possible. It's more involved than NWoD, but also cleaner than OWoD (IMHO) and makes for a pretty neat system.

 

[Blaque]

Another game for those who like more "crunchy" combat and the WW dicepools is their fantasy line, Exalted. There's a second edition coming out in Febuary, but the core rulebook is sitll only $30, so if you want to give a high-fantasy, kung fu, I'm going to blow this boat into shrapnal wiht my bow sort of action game, Exalted might be pretty neat for ya.

I mean, seriously. I just watched Samurai 7 the other day. Holy crap that gave me more inspiration then I have had in a bit

Stuff.