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Questions about Spellfire
- Thread starter Green Blade
- Start date
Dear Chosen of Mystra,
Who cares if the topic has already been discussed ? Whose who have already discussed it. The goal of my post was to make a summary of various arguments already exposed elsewhere. As I haven't found these by myself (Never planed to use spellfire IMC), I just repeat what I see on wizard's site, and try to explain it briefly, and try too to suggest that this topic is recurrent one, a ranger-like one : you know the type of topic that never find consensus. As I only have a 56k modem, I was somewhat brief. I'm just sorry you didn't catch it.
At higer level : Meteor swarm : 25 d6, without save. converted in spellfire, this become 9 d6, reflex save for half damage. Idem with the healing ability. Your wizard or cleric budy will not wast his precious spell on you just to allow you to endanger his life by calling all bounty hunters upon the party. And, as you need to ready an action, you can't "load" yourself with your own spells.
I think the level 20 sorceror will be better inspired to cast time stop and then use three gate spells to summon 3 solars.
Spellfire is usefull at low and mid level, when you are prepared, against a poweful ennemy that you can't kill otherwise. Just hope he don't cast "dispel magic".
Anyway, most people looking at the feat will think "broken munchkin feat from forgotten realms of Oz" and add it to the long list of things they don't like (with the drizzit, the chosen, the regional equipment, elminster...).
I think it's an usefull tool for the DM, and allow great campaign idea, and I think it's not broken if the DM carefully watch its use. (the ready action thing, mostly)
Who cares if the topic has already been discussed ? Whose who have already discussed it. The goal of my post was to make a summary of various arguments already exposed elsewhere. As I haven't found these by myself (Never planed to use spellfire IMC), I just repeat what I see on wizard's site, and try to explain it briefly, and try too to suggest that this topic is recurrent one, a ranger-like one : you know the type of topic that never find consensus. As I only have a 56k modem, I was somewhat brief. I'm just sorry you didn't catch it.
1d6 damage reflex half better than 1d4+1 no save ? And the 1d4+1 became 2d4+2 at third level, 3d+3 at 5th ... while your 1d6 remain 1d6.
At higer level : Meteor swarm : 25 d6, without save. converted in spellfire, this become 9 d6, reflex save for half damage. Idem with the healing ability. Your wizard or cleric budy will not wast his precious spell on you just to allow you to endanger his life by calling all bounty hunters upon the party. And, as you need to ready an action, you can't "load" yourself with your own spells.
Your level 20 sorceror need 40 in constitution to do that. Not impossible, but... And he will deal an average 40*3.5 = 140 hp damage. Your great wyrm dracolich (say, a deep dragon) will have 39 d12= 253 hp. Oops. I forgot the fact that your wyrm has +22 in his reflex save. So that's just -70 hp for him. Impressive.
I think the level 20 sorceror will be better inspired to cast time stop and then use three gate spells to summon 3 solars.
Spellfire is usefull at low and mid level, when you are prepared, against a poweful ennemy that you can't kill otherwise. Just hope he don't cast "dispel magic".
Anyway, most people looking at the feat will think "broken munchkin feat from forgotten realms of Oz" and add it to the long list of things they don't like (with the drizzit, the chosen, the regional equipment, elminster...).
I think it's an usefull tool for the DM, and allow great campaign idea, and I think it's not broken if the DM carefully watch its use. (the ready action thing, mostly)
Chosen of Mystra
First Post
It is never just 1d6 is do not want it to be. It is 1d6 per level of spellfire you choose to use.
If I am not mistaken you can hold a number of levels of spellfire equal to your total character level plus CON. So if I am not mistaken you could hold forty levels of spellfire at level 21 in the example I used.
I do agree however that he probably would be more inclined to use a differnt spell.
But who says you can't load from the unused spells of a wizard at the end of the day before they study for the next day?
All interpretation. Thats all.
Aaron L
Hero
Well, lets see. It says the wielder absorbs spells as a rod of absorbtion. Rod of absorbtion says it may absorb the energy of a single target spell or a ray directed at the caster or his gear. And I believe it specifically says you can't absorb a fireball somewhere in one of the descritions of spellfire.
In addition, the spellfire wielder must be have a readied action to absorb a spell. Otherwise, they are affected normally. So, if the wielder wants to be immune to magic, he simply has use all his actions to be ready to absorb any spells. Most players don't want to do this.
(And unless you have the spellfire channeler PrC, you are limited to Con in spellfire levels.)
In addition, the spellfire wielder must be have a readied action to absorb a spell. Otherwise, they are affected normally. So, if the wielder wants to be immune to magic, he simply has use all his actions to be ready to absorb any spells. Most players don't want to do this.
(And unless you have the spellfire channeler PrC, you are limited to Con in spellfire levels.)
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(Why am I posting ? must be victim of a compulsion spell : defend spellfire.)
One level of spellfire energy require one spell level. So 1 magic missile absorbed to power your spellfire = 1 d6 damage, while one magic missile fired = xd4+x damage without save nor attack roll.
Do not confound the advantage given by the spellfire feat, and the one given by the spellfire wielder prc. This is a much to common error.
As for the wizard casting his unused spells at the end of the day... my monsters are used to attack by night. If the dm is nasty enough, I doubt a wizard (or a cleric, a bard...) will risk to be powerless for 8 hours, just to load his budy. And what about the simple risk to be discovered if rumors begin to spray about "this guy who ask that other guy to cast "hold person" at him.
Anyway, I think that, correctly played, the feat is not dangerous or game breaking : just to start, the character does not know his abilities. If he isn't a spellcaster, he probably won't have the spellcraft skill necessary to differentiate fireball from cause fear. He won't ask (at 1st level) his budy to cast ray of enfeeblement on him or cause light wound... Just don't give the feat to powergamer unable to think "in character".
One level of spellfire energy require one spell level. So 1 magic missile absorbed to power your spellfire = 1 d6 damage, while one magic missile fired = xd4+x damage without save nor attack roll.
Do not confound the advantage given by the spellfire feat, and the one given by the spellfire wielder prc. This is a much to common error.
As for the wizard casting his unused spells at the end of the day... my monsters are used to attack by night. If the dm is nasty enough, I doubt a wizard (or a cleric, a bard...) will risk to be powerless for 8 hours, just to load his budy. And what about the simple risk to be discovered if rumors begin to spray about "this guy who ask that other guy to cast "hold person" at him.
Anyway, I think that, correctly played, the feat is not dangerous or game breaking : just to start, the character does not know his abilities. If he isn't a spellcaster, he probably won't have the spellcraft skill necessary to differentiate fireball from cause fear. He won't ask (at 1st level) his budy to cast ray of enfeeblement on him or cause light wound... Just don't give the feat to powergamer unable to think "in character".
Cloudgatherer
First Post
Personally, I think the spellfire abilities are pretty weak.
A spellfire wielder can hold up to his Con in spellfire levels. Big deal. At low levels, assuming a powergamer, a spellfire wielder can blow things away, but maybe only once before he/she is out of spellfire levels. Perhaps the nifty ability with spellfire is its healing ability: 2 points per level. It's not much, but it could potentially save a party member's life.
At the high end (Spellfire Channeller PrC), it's still pretty weak. How many creatures are going to fail a reflex save of DC 20? Not a whole lot. Even still, despite having 4 or 5 times your Con in spellfire levels, the higher abilities cost an astounding amout to use: 10 spellfire levels per round. Ouch. And if you want to attack, you can only expend up to your Con in spellfire levels per round. Double ouch. That's 18d6 damage, assuming you have the spellfire levels, can hit your target, and the target can always make a reflex save (or worse have evasion).
While spellfire can be a devastating ability, I tend to think of it as a watered down wizard or sorcerer. At some point, the character simply runs out of juice and must fall back on whatever class he/she took.
A spellfire wielder can hold up to his Con in spellfire levels. Big deal. At low levels, assuming a powergamer, a spellfire wielder can blow things away, but maybe only once before he/she is out of spellfire levels. Perhaps the nifty ability with spellfire is its healing ability: 2 points per level. It's not much, but it could potentially save a party member's life.
At the high end (Spellfire Channeller PrC), it's still pretty weak. How many creatures are going to fail a reflex save of DC 20? Not a whole lot. Even still, despite having 4 or 5 times your Con in spellfire levels, the higher abilities cost an astounding amout to use: 10 spellfire levels per round. Ouch. And if you want to attack, you can only expend up to your Con in spellfire levels per round. Double ouch. That's 18d6 damage, assuming you have the spellfire levels, can hit your target, and the target can always make a reflex save (or worse have evasion).
While spellfire can be a devastating ability, I tend to think of it as a watered down wizard or sorcerer. At some point, the character simply runs out of juice and must fall back on whatever class he/she took.
Just a casual observation...
Wouldn't the spellfire feat benefit a villain far more than a PC?
After all, you never know who's going to be the target of an aimed spell in a party....but a lone villain has a much better chance of expecting such attack and being correct.
He or she can also have spellcaster cronies to help him or her "power up" before a big showdown...
Wouldn't the spellfire feat benefit a villain far more than a PC?
After all, you never know who's going to be the target of an aimed spell in a party....but a lone villain has a much better chance of expecting such attack and being correct.
He or she can also have spellcaster cronies to help him or her "power up" before a big showdown...
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Spellfire Rulings
Here are the rules as written by Wizards of the Coast.
Forgotten Realms: Campaign Setting
SpellFire
A spellfire wielder can ready an action to absorb spells targeted at her as if she were a rod of absorption. She gets one level of spellfire energy for every spell level absorbed and can store a number of spellfire energy levels equal to her Constitution score.
As a standard action, she may expend these spellfire energy levels as a ranged touch attack (maximum range 400 feet), dealing 1d6 points of spellfire damage per level expended (reflex half DC 20). Spellfire damage is half fire damage and half raw magic power, just like the damage of a Flame Strike spell is half fire and half divine energy. Creatures with Immunity, resistance, or protection against fire apply these effects to half the damage.
A spellfire wielder can also heal a target by touch, restoring 2 hit points per spellfire energy level expended for this purpose.
Unlike most supernatural abilities, spellfire is affected by spells and magic items that affect spell-like abilities, such as a rod of absorption or a rod of negation (if pointed at the manifestation rather than the wielder). It can be thwarted or counterspelled by Dispel Magic, and theoretically a spellfire wielder could counterspell another's spellfire. However, spellfire is a supernatural ability and does not provoke an attack of opportunity when used, nor is it subject to spell resistance.
Magic of Faerun (New Information only)
If her Constitution decreases so that her number of stored spellfire levels is greater than her current Constitution, the excess levels discharge at a random creature in range as destructive spellfire.
Stored spellfire energy levels are unavailable in an Antimagic Field, but are not lost. Once the wielder is out of the Antimagic Field, the spellfire energy levels are again available for use. Dispel Magic and similar effects cannot negate stored spellfire energy levels. A character with stored levels radiates magic as if he were an item with a caster level equal to his number of stored levels.
From the above information, we find out the basis behind spellfire. A character must ready an action to absorb spells, thus taking his turn in combat, and the spell must be targeted at him. A character with stored spellfire points can release them to deal damage to a single target. The damage is equal to 1d6 per spellfire level expended (with a maximum being your Constitution score), on a successful Ranged Touch Attack, not to mention the target gets a save for half. A character with store spellfire points can heal a target by touch, healing 2 points per spellfire point expended.
Looking at the ruling, I cannot see how Spellfire is a broken rule. I have friends that refuse to allow it in their games, and I laugh and say "have at" when people ask for it in my games. First off, you have to ready an action, and hope your targeted with a spell. If your doing this in combat, your opening yourself up to radius spells, as well as attacks from other enemies. Think of it this way. Wizard1 has spellfire, and is in combat against wizard2. Initiative is rolled, and wizard2 wins by 2 points, due to Improved Initiative. Wizard2 cast's Hold Person on wizard1. Wizard1 passes his save and is uneffected. Wizard1 takes the turn gathering his thoughts, and gets to go at the highest initiative on the next round. He then readies an action to absorb a spell. Wizard2 cast's fireball, dealing 6d6 damage (rolling 19). Wizard1 feels is in pain.
Scenario Two. Wizard1 wins initiative and readies an action to absorb a spell. Wizard2 casts Dominate Monster at wizard1, but the spell is absorbed. Fighter1 charges out from behind cover, and bull rushes wizard1, knocking him to the ground. Round Two. Wizard1 attempts to stand, then takes a 5 foot step away from fighter1. Wizard2 cast's Disintegrate, dealing 6d6 after wizard1's lucky save. Fighter1 then takes his 4 normal attacks, and his 1 extra attack from having speed on his weapon. Wizard1 dies.
Its rare to find a good use for absorbing spells in combat. If you were in a 1v1 wizard duel, you might get to absorb a single spell before the enemy found out what you were, and started using radius spells.
Of course, if you have spellcasting friends that you can trust, and you find a safe place to do it, an ally can "fill you up" so that your next combat is a little easier. You could unleash a 12d6 blast against the next Big Bad Evil Guy that you meet, or you could heal the groups cleric enough to bring him out of unconsciousness. In both of these forms, spellfire can be useful.
After all of my ranting of how Spellfire isnt unbalancing or broken, I now change over to the broken part of spellfire.
A metagaming player (one that looks for loopholes in the rules. You know him as the guy that goes into the DMG and makes a magic item that follows these rules. Constant Effect, worn item = (Spell Level x Caster Level) x 2,000 (x8 for casting time of spell) and uses a worn item with the spell True Strike. 1x1x16,000gp. So for 16,000gp, the item grants you +20 to hit constantly. Metagamers suck...) will attempt to do the following to make Spellfire as useful as possible.
Character = Wizard. Wizard has Familiar. Wizard cast's Shocking Grasp then readies an action to absorb a spell. Then wizard has familiar hit him with spell. Thus, granting him 1 Spellfire level.
Allowing this to work would be up to the Dungeon Master of course. Metagamers that arent allowed to do this will often complain, simply because they came up with something that should technically work.
I have to laugh. There is no reason to add a level adjustment to Spellfire. Get a friend or two to create characters normally. Then tell one they can have spellfire. Make sure they know that if organizations (evil ones usually) find out they have it, they will be hunted. (Spellfire was intended to be a Role Playing Mechanic, that granted a little extra help) Write up a few short adventures, and run them through just as you would a normal game. Every time they absorb a spell or release stored energy, write it down. Mark who cast the absorbed spell, what spell it was, what else was in combat, and how much damage the player took from other creatures the round he absorbed the spell.
After a few adventures, you will see that spellfire, even if metagamed as mentioned above, is not really game breaking. Also, watch how long it takes for the character with spellfire to actually use the ability, and how long it takes the other character to find out about it. I held a game with two players, and the one without spellfire didnt know about his friends "abilities" till the 5th session. Of course, session 8 was entertaining because he was spotted using it, and was attacked by cultists.
If you want game breaking, take the wizard that never runs out of spells (Complete Mage: Reserve Feats, Or Complete Arcane: Warlock)
Looking at the rulings from the book, Spellfire isnt that powerful. If you havnt allowed it into a game simply because you think its too powerful, I urge you to make a mini game and playtest it. I have an ongoing campaign with a character with spellfire. It comes in handy once in a while, when the cleric falls, or when they come across something that just wont die (that half raw magic damage is nice if he has points saved).
I hope this has been helpful to any lookin to use Spellfire. I am not trying to offend anyone. I appologise now if I bashed anyone, or sounded rude. Im just here to point out the rulings, and give a little insight to the feat.
Here are the rules as written by Wizards of the Coast.
Forgotten Realms: Campaign Setting
SpellFire
A spellfire wielder can ready an action to absorb spells targeted at her as if she were a rod of absorption. She gets one level of spellfire energy for every spell level absorbed and can store a number of spellfire energy levels equal to her Constitution score.
As a standard action, she may expend these spellfire energy levels as a ranged touch attack (maximum range 400 feet), dealing 1d6 points of spellfire damage per level expended (reflex half DC 20). Spellfire damage is half fire damage and half raw magic power, just like the damage of a Flame Strike spell is half fire and half divine energy. Creatures with Immunity, resistance, or protection against fire apply these effects to half the damage.
A spellfire wielder can also heal a target by touch, restoring 2 hit points per spellfire energy level expended for this purpose.
Unlike most supernatural abilities, spellfire is affected by spells and magic items that affect spell-like abilities, such as a rod of absorption or a rod of negation (if pointed at the manifestation rather than the wielder). It can be thwarted or counterspelled by Dispel Magic, and theoretically a spellfire wielder could counterspell another's spellfire. However, spellfire is a supernatural ability and does not provoke an attack of opportunity when used, nor is it subject to spell resistance.
Magic of Faerun (New Information only)
If her Constitution decreases so that her number of stored spellfire levels is greater than her current Constitution, the excess levels discharge at a random creature in range as destructive spellfire.
Stored spellfire energy levels are unavailable in an Antimagic Field, but are not lost. Once the wielder is out of the Antimagic Field, the spellfire energy levels are again available for use. Dispel Magic and similar effects cannot negate stored spellfire energy levels. A character with stored levels radiates magic as if he were an item with a caster level equal to his number of stored levels.
From the above information, we find out the basis behind spellfire. A character must ready an action to absorb spells, thus taking his turn in combat, and the spell must be targeted at him. A character with stored spellfire points can release them to deal damage to a single target. The damage is equal to 1d6 per spellfire level expended (with a maximum being your Constitution score), on a successful Ranged Touch Attack, not to mention the target gets a save for half. A character with store spellfire points can heal a target by touch, healing 2 points per spellfire point expended.
Looking at the ruling, I cannot see how Spellfire is a broken rule. I have friends that refuse to allow it in their games, and I laugh and say "have at" when people ask for it in my games. First off, you have to ready an action, and hope your targeted with a spell. If your doing this in combat, your opening yourself up to radius spells, as well as attacks from other enemies. Think of it this way. Wizard1 has spellfire, and is in combat against wizard2. Initiative is rolled, and wizard2 wins by 2 points, due to Improved Initiative. Wizard2 cast's Hold Person on wizard1. Wizard1 passes his save and is uneffected. Wizard1 takes the turn gathering his thoughts, and gets to go at the highest initiative on the next round. He then readies an action to absorb a spell. Wizard2 cast's fireball, dealing 6d6 damage (rolling 19). Wizard1 feels is in pain.
Scenario Two. Wizard1 wins initiative and readies an action to absorb a spell. Wizard2 casts Dominate Monster at wizard1, but the spell is absorbed. Fighter1 charges out from behind cover, and bull rushes wizard1, knocking him to the ground. Round Two. Wizard1 attempts to stand, then takes a 5 foot step away from fighter1. Wizard2 cast's Disintegrate, dealing 6d6 after wizard1's lucky save. Fighter1 then takes his 4 normal attacks, and his 1 extra attack from having speed on his weapon. Wizard1 dies.
Its rare to find a good use for absorbing spells in combat. If you were in a 1v1 wizard duel, you might get to absorb a single spell before the enemy found out what you were, and started using radius spells.
Of course, if you have spellcasting friends that you can trust, and you find a safe place to do it, an ally can "fill you up" so that your next combat is a little easier. You could unleash a 12d6 blast against the next Big Bad Evil Guy that you meet, or you could heal the groups cleric enough to bring him out of unconsciousness. In both of these forms, spellfire can be useful.
After all of my ranting of how Spellfire isnt unbalancing or broken, I now change over to the broken part of spellfire.
A metagaming player (one that looks for loopholes in the rules. You know him as the guy that goes into the DMG and makes a magic item that follows these rules. Constant Effect, worn item = (Spell Level x Caster Level) x 2,000 (x8 for casting time of spell) and uses a worn item with the spell True Strike. 1x1x16,000gp. So for 16,000gp, the item grants you +20 to hit constantly. Metagamers suck...) will attempt to do the following to make Spellfire as useful as possible.
Character = Wizard. Wizard has Familiar. Wizard cast's Shocking Grasp then readies an action to absorb a spell. Then wizard has familiar hit him with spell. Thus, granting him 1 Spellfire level.
Allowing this to work would be up to the Dungeon Master of course. Metagamers that arent allowed to do this will often complain, simply because they came up with something that should technically work.
I have to laugh. There is no reason to add a level adjustment to Spellfire. Get a friend or two to create characters normally. Then tell one they can have spellfire. Make sure they know that if organizations (evil ones usually) find out they have it, they will be hunted. (Spellfire was intended to be a Role Playing Mechanic, that granted a little extra help) Write up a few short adventures, and run them through just as you would a normal game. Every time they absorb a spell or release stored energy, write it down. Mark who cast the absorbed spell, what spell it was, what else was in combat, and how much damage the player took from other creatures the round he absorbed the spell.
After a few adventures, you will see that spellfire, even if metagamed as mentioned above, is not really game breaking. Also, watch how long it takes for the character with spellfire to actually use the ability, and how long it takes the other character to find out about it. I held a game with two players, and the one without spellfire didnt know about his friends "abilities" till the 5th session. Of course, session 8 was entertaining because he was spotted using it, and was attacked by cultists.
If you want game breaking, take the wizard that never runs out of spells (Complete Mage: Reserve Feats, Or Complete Arcane: Warlock)
Looking at the rulings from the book, Spellfire isnt that powerful. If you havnt allowed it into a game simply because you think its too powerful, I urge you to make a mini game and playtest it. I have an ongoing campaign with a character with spellfire. It comes in handy once in a while, when the cleric falls, or when they come across something that just wont die (that half raw magic damage is nice if he has points saved).
Ok, this one is just funny. Virtual Immunity to Magic? Did you even read what spellfire is? Or, did you just guess? I dont mean to sound rude. I just think you should re-read spellfire. Or, you can read above, as I posted the information.
I hope this has been helpful to any lookin to use Spellfire. I am not trying to offend anyone. I appologise now if I bashed anyone, or sounded rude. Im just here to point out the rulings, and give a little insight to the feat.
Olaf the Stout
Hero
The information you posted is probably useful, but the OP originally posted about it 5 years ago! That's gotta be some sort of thread necromancy record! 
Olaf the Stout
Olaf the Stout
Impressive raise dead... but since the thread has been revived:
We have a spellfire wielder in a campaign since years (sorcerer with the feat). The requirement to ready an action to absorb a spell means the feat was never used for that in combat. Even with "recharging" by the cleric, the spellfire tiself was balanced - it's a nice source of ome extra attacks, or healing, but a sorcerer's spells trump it damage/effect wise most of the time.
So, while I was a bit sceptical, I have to say the feat is balanced.
We have a spellfire wielder in a campaign since years (sorcerer with the feat). The requirement to ready an action to absorb a spell means the feat was never used for that in combat. Even with "recharging" by the cleric, the spellfire tiself was balanced - it's a nice source of ome extra attacks, or healing, but a sorcerer's spells trump it damage/effect wise most of the time.
So, while I was a bit sceptical, I have to say the feat is balanced.
