Quick and Dirty Magic System

[hawaiianbrian]

Hello, new to these boards and just thought I'd start by mentioning an alternative Pathfinder magic system that's been kicking around in my head the last few days. It's supposed to be simple, easy, and quick. I'd love to know what people think.

Quick and Dirty Magic System for Pathfinder/3.5:

* All spells are cast by making an Intelligence check against a flat DC 10. This never changes -- it's the DC of casting a spell of any level. Of course, modifiers may apply (horseback, distractions, etc.)

* Both arcane and divine spells are cast by spending spell points (call it what you want -- Mana, Power Points, Focus Points, etc.). A spell costs the same amount of points to cast as its spell level. Cantrips/orisons are free to cast as often as you like.

* Spellcasters have a number of spell points equal to their spellcaster levels + appropriate modifier (Intelligence, Charisma, or Wisdom).

* Spending a move action refreshes one spell point per round. This means your wizard can go Total Defense and not budge and get a spell point back. Alternatively, he can use his move action to refresh a spell point, then convert his standard action to a move action if he wants to move.

* Spells with a duration (like Mage Armor, Web, etc., or anything that has a "concentration" duration) keep spent spell points "tied up" until the duration is complete or the spell dropped. In other words, if a Wizard spends 2 points on a Mage Armor, he can't refresh those spell points until he drops the spell or it runs out. Until then his spell point maximum is effectively two points lower.

* At 12th level, spellcasters may take a new feat, "Rapid Recharge," which allows a character to gain two points instead of one when recharging.

* The cantrip Cure Minor Wounds now only stabilizes dying characters, instead of healing 1 hp (otherwise you could just cast 50 of these in rapid succession for free after combat and nix your healer).

I recommend playing with small stones, beads, poker chips, gold coins, etc. Make a pile to represent the spell point pool, another to represent "held" points tied up by an ongoing spell, and another to represent spent spell points. This helps visualize one's spell point resource, and keep one from having to constantly draw/erase a number on paper.

Any reactions? Ideas? Notice any obvious game play or design flaws? I appreciate any feedback, as I might just introduce this to my group soon.

 

[Jhaelen]

A spell costs the same amount of points to cast as its spell level.

Not a good idea, imho. Higher level spells should cost more points. Maybe you could use the progression used in 3.5 psionics, though, i.e. (level * 2) - 1.

What's your goal for this new magic system, btw.?

 

[Aus_Snow]

* All spells are cast by making an Intelligence check against a flat DC 10. This never changes -- it's the DC of casting a spell of any level. Of course, modifiers may apply (horseback, distractions, etc.)

I'm not sure why you're singling out the one ability here, when it could be others in use, as stated below... And the thing is, unless you see all casters are genii, or inevitably end up that way, well. Perhaps different abilities for different magic? Also, if you're going to have a check for casting, I recommend scaling DCs with spell levels.

A spell costs the same amount of points to cast as its spell level.

I agree with Jhaelen here. 1 for 1 means higher level spells are just far too cheap.

Spells with a duration (like Mage Armor, Web, etc., or anything that has a "concentration" duration) keep spent spell points "tied up" until the duration is complete or the spell dropped. In other words, if a Wizard spends 2 points on a Mage Armor, he can't refresh those spell points until he drops the spell or it runs out. Until then his spell point maximum is effectively two points lower.

This general kind of thing, I like a lot, and have added to my house rules some time ago.

The cantrip Cure Minor Wounds now only stabilizes dying characters, instead of healing 1 hp (otherwise you could just cast 50 of these in rapid succession for free after combat and nix your healer).

Check out this section of the Pathfinder SRD. Note what is there, and what isn't, in level 0 spells. Or simply have a look at your corebook.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

My first thought is that classes with a limited number of known spells really get shafted here. Under this system Wizards and Sorcerers cast the same number of spells/day (not exactly, but you get my point I'm sure), but Sorcerers still have their very limited number of spells to cast and Wizards can still have as many as they can find in their books.

 

[wolff96]

My first thought is that classes with a limited number of known spells really get shafted here. Under this system Wizards and Sorcerers cast the same number of spells/day (not exactly, but you get my point I'm sure), but Sorcerers still have their very limited number of spells to cast and Wizards can still have as many as they can find in their books.

I think it's actually worse than that -- he really shafts Sorcerers since they need high charisma for their DCs *and* need high intelligence to cast their spells.

If you have a 10-Int (and I've seen Sorcerers with worse than that) you have a 50-50 shot every time you try and cast a spell...

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If anything, I would make this system similar to Concentration Checks, but with a scaling DC.

So a player is rolling d20 + Spellcaster Level + Ability Score.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking something like DC = 10 + (spell level * 2).

For a first level spellcaster (with an 18 ability score) that means you need to roll a 7 or better on the die, so it might need tweaked a bit... but at least you're no longer penalizing a player for choosing anything *BUT* a wizard!

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Random thought to answer Mowgli's concern...

Maybe a "prepared" caster gets fewer spell points per day? So they can't maintain as many buffs and lasting spell effects? It would give Sorcerers, Oracles, and (to a lesser extent) Bards a clear niche -- they can maintain more spells at once.

The other option is to tweak the formula: If the DC was 10 + (Spell Level * 2) for a sorcerer and 10 + (Spell Level * 3) for a wizard, you'd see a significant difference in the number of successful spells! Or if you didn't want the scaling to be quite as bad on prepared casters, it could be 15 + (Spell Level * 2).

Show the inherent connection to magic for the spontaneous casters by flat-out making their spells more likely to succeed!

 

[Croesus]

This is very similar to a system I posted a couple years ago. My group used it for our last couple campaigns and really liked it.

A few elements from that system you might consider:

-We had a single caster class without the arbitrary arcane/divine split. Casters selected a certain number of known spells from any spell list (if GM allowed), then each day selected from that list which spells they could cast that day. By tweaking those two numbers, you can increase/decrease the flexibility of the casters. For example, you might allow each caster to know 4 spells per caster level + stat Mod, and allow the caster to memorize daily 2 spells per caster level. As for class design, it was like a sorcerer, with D6 hit points, more skill points, and bonus feats.

-We used sorcerer class progression for spell casting. In other words, you had to 6th-level before you could cast a spell costing 3 spell points.

-Spell point pools were 4 + approx 1 spell point per caster level. So a 1st-level caster had 4 spell points, and a 20th level caster had 28 points. Like you, we reduced the caster spell point pool for any ongoing effects. Casters automatically recharged one spent spell point each round - one point simply isn't a big deal, and I like to encourage characters to move around, which requiring the move action takes away. I toyed with allowing feats that would increase the spell point pool size, but decided they didn't work well (either too good, so always taken, or too lousy, so never taken).

-We noticed that oftentimes casters would open with their most powerful spells in the beginning of combat. If that's a concern, I recommend a rule that spells cast in the first round (or first two rounds) cost double. A caster can still cast up to their maximum spell level, but it depletes their pool by twice as many points. Example, fireball would cost six spell points, if cast in round one.

-Metamagic was easy to incorporate, as they increase the spell point cost of a spell. With the cap of 1/2 caster level for the max spell points spent on any one spell, metamagic worked much like core rules. We didn't use the full round casting requirement from core rules, though.

-We never worried about being able to heal up fully, if time permitted, so we didn't limit healing spells. YMMV. However, any spell could be designated by the GM as "problematic", meaning any spell points spent on that spell only recharged after 8 hours of rest. This allows a GM to permit certain spells (teleport, wall of iron, healing), but effectively they can only be cast a few times per day. Any spell with a duration of permanent was always treated as "problematic", so no infinite continual lights. If I were to update the system today, I'd call these rituals (blatantly stealing from 4E), but otherwise they would work the same.

-I disagree with those who want higher-level spells to cost more. While specific spell levels have better/worse choices (I always felt 2nd level spells just don't compare well to 1st and 3rd level spells), any spell point system that uses some kind of logarithmic scale results in either unlimited points for lower level spells, or too few points to cast the higher level ones. What's the point of being high level if casting a single high level spell wipes out over half your spell points? Personal preference here - others will disagree.

-Overall, a lot of our tweaks were designed to keep the caster class comparable to other classes. We tended to have slightly more powerful versions of the classes, so the caster class I've described reflects that . One of the nice things about the system you've posted is that it's relatively easy to tweak in either direction, so your casters don't outshine the other characters, but also are not totally useless.

 

[hawaiianbrian]

Thanks everyone for your comments so far.

Let me clarify a couple of points. First, I wasn't clear with my first post. I should have said one needs to roll whichever attribute is used for spellcasting, not just Intelligence -- so it could also be Charisma or Wisdom.

Second, it does seem like this system would encourage spellcasters to start combat with their most powerful spell every time, and why not? They effectively start every combat with a full complement of spells. I see the former as a problem (an 18th-level Wizard could begin each encounter with Time Stop and Meteor Swarm), but not the latter. One of the things I can't stand is the idea of resting eight hours -- or a whole day! -- to get back one's spells. It might work okay in theory, but in practice all that happens is the characters have to find some place in a dungeon (probably the most hostile environment possible) to actually sleep for many hours unmolested, and the DM has to decide whether or not he's going to allow it to happen or drag things down with pointless random encounters. If the characters are harassed with random encounters, why afterward they'll just need to rest even more, so eventually the DM has to cave. Characters simply cannot function unless they're fresh or at least operating at high capacity, and it makes the game no fun to boot. So I don't mind the idea that characters can spend a few minutes after an encounter to get back all their spells and hit points and press on. Nobody should be spending a week trying to get through a dungeon anyway.

So as for spellcasters starting off with their most powerful spells each time, I don't know what to do about that other than make the costs increase with higher levels. But then they become too expensive, and make what is supposed to be simple more complicated. I also see this as a general problem with spells in D&D, which scale at this ridiculous amplified level. Actually, D&D has a scaling problem in general, all across the board -- but that's an issue for another thread.

Having spells cost double their spell level -1 might work, though I'd probably want to increase the amount of spells recovered every round to 2.

As for infringing upon Sorcerers: I would probably eliminate them. I don't find that class terribly playable or necessary. In my opinion, it would have been a lot better if the sorcerer was something else entirely, like a class that can absorb and redirect incoming spells but can't cast any on their own, or something like that. So I'd probably just cut it out if I use this. No one I've ever played with has ever tried to play a sorcerer anyhow.

I also don't mind a flat 10 DC casting difficulty, because that means generally spellcasters will get a little better as they increase in levels. Also, it seems like "double jeopardy" to make higher level spells harder to cast and more expensive...

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

As for infringing upon Sorcerers: I would probably eliminate them. I don't find that class terribly playable or necessary. In my opinion, it would have been a lot better if the sorcerer was something else entirely, like a class that can absorb and redirect incoming spells but can't cast any on their own, or something like that. So I'd probably just cut it out if I use this. No one I've ever played with has ever tried to play a sorcerer anyhow.

Well, it did look like it had potential. I wouldn't have said anything about Sorcerers if I thought they were unplayable or unnecessary. So, this plainly won't be the alternate system for me . . .

Also, this fails to address the fact that the same inequities of this system in regards to Sorcerers effect all classes with limited 'spellbooks.' Sorcerers are simply the most glaring example.

 

[Tovec]

Hello, new to these boards and just thought I'd start by mentioning an alternative Pathfinder magic system that's been kicking around in my head the last few days. It's supposed to be simple, easy, and quick. I'd love to know what people think.

Quick and Dirty Magic System for Pathfinder/3.5:

* All spells are cast by making an Intelligence check against a flat DC 10. This never changes -- it's the DC of casting a spell of any level. Of course, modifiers may apply (horseback, distractions, etc.)

As already said it should be higher.

* Both arcane and divine spells are cast by spending spell points (call it what you want -- Mana, Power Points, Focus Points, etc.). A spell costs the same amount of points to cast as its spell level. Cantrips/orisons are free to cast as often as you like.

Calling them different things is great but I think you'll have rather large problems with most divine (healing especially) and some aspects of arcane.

* Spellcasters have a number of spell points equal to their spellcaster levels + appropriate modifier (Intelligence, Charisma, or Wisdom).

Surprisingly this is something I have no problem with, but there should be some other minor restrictions and bonuses to level it out.

* Spending a move action refreshes one spell point per round. This means your wizard can go Total Defense and not budge and get a spell point back. Alternatively, he can use his move action to refresh a spell point, then convert his standard action to a move action if he wants to move.

Make this they can replenish as a move action but gain no more than 1 per round. Also, a Total Defense is a full round action, so they would regain nothing.

* Spells with a duration (like Mage Armor, Web, etc., or anything that has a "concentration" duration) keep spent spell points "tied up" until the duration is complete or the spell dropped. In other words, if a Wizard spends 2 points on a Mage Armor, he can't refresh those spell points until he drops the spell or it runs out. Until then his spell point maximum is effectively two points lower.

This again, I like but will have problems with spells that don't require concentration or duration. As you realize a little later with healing powers.

* At 12th level, spellcasters may take a new feat, "Rapid Recharge," which allows a character to gain two points instead of one when recharging.

Change this to, they can now gain 2 points per round instead of 1 but still require to spend a move action per point, AKA full round = 2 points.

* The cantrip Cure Minor Wounds now only stabilizes dying characters, instead of healing 1 hp (otherwise you could just cast 50 of these in rapid succession for free after combat and nix your healer).

Cure Minor doesn't exist in PF. It's been replaced with Stablize, which does exactly what you are saying and its still a 0 level spell.

Okay onto general thoughts and flaws.
I like the idea, but I don't think it works with regular Pathfinder. I would like to see this system extended to allow others to be able to cast spells, probably with a different flavour. Meaning, rituals allowing a fighter to be able to open a portal, assuming they know how.
Anyway, given what I suggest, pure casters would have other powers, similar to what they mostly do now, which allow them to perform other tricks or spells without "casting". This would be former "spells" along the lines of detection (most divination, detect evil), healing (cure light, restoration), or similar effects. Basically anything that separates a wizard from a cleric. Beyond this, the martial classes would need to be re-adjusted because they would quickly outpace the new casters. It might work if you went back to more 3.5 styles for the martial classes, I'm not sure. I'll have to think more on that and get back to you. Overall I'm intrigued and I'd like to see how this develops.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I would like to see this system extended to allow others to be able to cast spells, probably with a different flavour. Meaning, rituals allowing a fighter to be able to open a portal, assuming they know how.

Well, there's always Incantations, or some variant on that, um, variant.