Quick Question on adapting FATE

[Emerikol]

After some thought about trying to bend D&D 5e to my playstyle, I began to entertain the idea that perhaps FATE would require less bending.

I bought FATE CORE, and FATE System Toolkit at Gen Con. My only issue with FATE and the major reason I avoided it in the past was their use of dissociative mechanics. Since D&D has dived right in though Fate deserves to be houseruled as much as any other game and I'm starting to think that perhaps it might be easier and afford me a better experience.

Some background.
I am a world builder. I love crafting involved and detailed settings. It's just a tiny step from crafting an intricate immersive D&D world to crafting the additional rules for FATE that are specific to the setting. So every time I do a setting I just develop the extra rules I need to make that setting come to life. In this way as I vary my creative processes from campaign to campaign, I can tweak the rules for flavor more easily.

So my first thought was that I needed to put some "meat" on the bones of the basic fate system. In many ways the same thing games like Dresden Files did. I have my own ideas though so my own meat might vary from what others have done.

Goals I would have for my game
1. Peasant to super heroic span as people level up.
2. Perhaps a clearer sense of advancement in a level like way. Not a big deal. You just get so many skill advancements each time you level.
3. A broad array of Aspects broken down into things you get at birth, during level up, and as you play.
4. A rich and plentifully vibrant magic item list.
5. A rich and plentifully vibrant magic system.

Things I'd have to fix
1. I don't like metagaming. So players choosing to stick to character in order to get a reward (compels) is not the approach I'd use.
2. I don't like fate points as a currency you can save or use whenever you like. I realize that fate points may be essential to characters surviving so I'd have to figure out a way to provide for them in a more natural in character way. Thus avoiding the metagaming. I even considered 1 fate point per encounter but not sure that is best either.


Anyway. Just some ideas I am entertaining. If anyone has advice I'd love to hear it. Please don't suggest I start liking metagaming or ignore dissociation. That will just lead to arguments and will not change my views. I've thought through what I like and I know myself. Please don't start an argument about what is or isn't dissociative and whether that is even knowable or whether everything meets the definition. I know what it is for myself and that is what is being discussed here. That is a debate for a different thread. Thanks!

Suggest away!




Edit:
One reason I am choosing Fate over perhaps Savage Worlds is that I love the Fate dice and the bell curve.

 

[Umbran]

The things you'd have to "fix" are pretty darned central to the operation of the FATE system. When you take out those features, I think you're left with a system that does things, but all those things are done *better* by other systems.

Which means you can do it, but I can't imagine why you'd bother.

Remember, for example, that nice "lingering wound as aspect" system? It requires compels. Take out compels, you take out the wound and health system

 

[Wednesday Boy]

I think if you removed compels and fate points you'd defang the system. It can still work without them but it'll be a very simple skill based system, similar to WEG's d6 system.

My friend is running a fantasy campaign in Fate. Since it is the group's first exposure to Fate he decided to not integrate compels, aspects, and fate points. The game worked fine when he ran it that way but after a handful of sessions he sought my advice because the game felt a little bland. They've since integrated compels, aspects, and fate points and enjoy the system much more. YMMV, of course.

 

[Umbran]

Edit:
One reason I am choosing Fate over perhaps Savage Worlds is that I love the Fate dice and the bell curve.

The bell curve is perhaps the smallest thing about FATE. Taking all of FATE, ripping most of it away, and then rebuilding it seems a heavy-handed way to get a game with a bell curve.

GURPS has a bell curve natively. You can get it in D&D by swapping a d20 for 3d6 or 4d6, and adjusting target numbers slightly. And so on.

 

[Emerikol]

The things you'd have to "fix" are pretty darned central to the operation of the FATE system. When you take out those features, I think you're left with a system that does things, but all those things are done *better* by other systems.

Which means you can do it, but I can't imagine why you'd bother.

Remember, for example, that nice "lingering wound as aspect" system? It requires compels. Take out compels, you take out the wound and health system

I think I may have painted with too broad a brush. I don't take issue with ALL compels. Perhaps even most of them would be fine. I was specifically thinking of the ones where you have some disadvantage and the DM offers you a Fate point to roleplay that disadvantage. So maybe I misunderstood the concept of compels a bit. I realize what I wrote does not express that thought so I admit I could have been a lot clearer. A case of my thoughts out running my writing.

But other than Fate points being offered for compels I felt like I was using the entire rest of the system. So I didn't perceive I was stripping it down and rebuilding it from scratch. I like the pyramidal skill system. I was just going to offer a more up front advancement system but the actual workings would remain the same. So instead of just getting something every single scene, you'd compute success at some more infrequent interval and move up the advancement chart.

Aspects seem good to me. Fate though is very much a build your own world from scratch kind of system which for me is part of it's appeal. They expect you to make a bunch of your own skills and aspects that fit you specific setting.

Perhaps you can help me by explaining why you think it is a rewrite?

 

[Emerikol]

I think if you removed compels and fate points you'd defang the system. It can still work without them but it'll be a very simple skill based system, similar to WEG's d6 system.

My friend is running a fantasy campaign in Fate. Since it is the group's first exposure to Fate he decided to not integrate compels, aspects, and fate points. The game worked fine when he ran it that way but after a handful of sessions he sought my advice because the game felt a little bland. They've since integrated compels, aspects, and fate points and enjoy the system much more. YMMV, of course.

I like aspects a lot so no issue there. One thing I like about them is that they break you free from the class system. You can craft far more custom backgrounds that have more meaning.

My issues with Fate points are their dissociative nature. I have though considered using Fate points with some other approach. Perhaps allow them for combat only and give 1 per scene/encounter. This then could be equated to stamina and extra effort. I realize that Fate points are useful. I just don't like how you get them. That is why I posted. To get some feedback from Fate people who might have ideas on how best to achieve my goals.

No system right now is perfect for me. That is why I'm looking around. Why should I houserule D&D dramatically and still not feel like it's a perfect fit when I might houserule Fate a lot less.

I talked about compels above. I would use them 90% of the time. I just take issue with the other 10%. Basically as they related to receiving Fate points.


Thanks for the feedback so far.

 

[Umbran]

I think I may have painted with too broad a brush. I don't take issue with ALL compels. Perhaps even most of them would be fine. I was specifically thinking of the ones where you have some disadvantage and the DM offers you a Fate point to roleplay that disadvantage.

That... generally doesn't happen. If you picked up FATE Core, look at the section on Compels. I'll take my quotes from the FATE SRD:

Types of Compels
There are two major categories for what a compel looks like in the game: events and decisions. These are tools to help you figure out what a compel should look like and help break any mental blocks.

Events
An event-based compel happens to the character in spite of herself, when the world around her responds to a certain aspect in a certain way and creates a complicating circumstance. It looks like this:

You have ____ aspect and are in ____ situation, so it makes sense that, unfortunately, ____ would happen to you. Damn your luck.


Decisions
A decision is a kind of compel that is internal to the character. It happens because of a decision he makes, hence the name. It looks like this:

You have ____ aspect in ____ situation, so it makes sense that you’d decide to ____. This goes wrong when ____ happens.

So, as you see, the compel does not result in them having to role-play a disadvantage. The compel results in something happening that is a pain in the neck for the player/character.

Note, there are two things that can happen:
1) The player may be compelled: this results in a complication for the character, and a FATE point for the player from the GM's infinite pool
2) The Bad Guys may Tag a Player's aspect: This results in a bonus on the NPC's roll, and costs A FATE point from the NPC's pool which does *not* go to the Player.

An example: Assume the character has taken some stress and as a result has the Consequence: Twisted Ankle. A fight starts on a balcony.

The Bad Guy spends a FATE point, and tags the Twisted Ankle, to gain a +2 on his attempt to use punch the PC, using Fists skill.

The GM holds out a FATE Point to the player and says, "Gee, you have a Twisted Ankle, and are in a fistfight on a balcony. It makes sense that your ankle might give out at a critical moment, so you stumble over the edge of the balcony and are now clinging to the rail for dear life. Damn your luck."

But other than Fate points being offered for compels I felt like I was using the entire rest of the system.

If you are not giving out Fate points with compels, the Fate Point economy breaks down, and the Players cease being able to tag aspects to get bonuses or re-rolls. Basically, if you don't give the players a hard time by compelling them, they quickly run out of ability to be awesome.

As noted above, if you don't have compels, the health/consequences system also breaks down, and needs to be replaced.

Depending on the variant, some Stunts need Fate points to invoke - and without compels, you lose the resource to drive those stunts, and they need to be rewritten.

And so on - in FATE, those points are really the only expendable resource the players get - if you break the economy, all the things that you spend FATE points on has to be rewritten, replaced, or discarded.

 

[dbm]

Two things:

First, have you considered Fudge (SRD) this is the predecessor to Fate and uses Fudge dice (they were Fudge dice first!) but doesn't have aspects or fate points.

Second, if you tell us more about what you are looking to achieve with your Fate hack (rather than what you dislike with Fate) maybe we can offer other options?

 

[Umbran]

My issues with Fate points are their dissociative nature. I have though considered using Fate points with some other approach. Perhaps allow them for combat only and give 1 per scene/encounter.

Imagine that you were playing D&D, and when rolling to hit, you got *just* your base attack Bonus. And you didn't get a strength or dex bonus on to-hit or damage. Then, once per encounter, you could generate a single +5. That'd be kind of analogous to what kind of gameplay you'd be talking about there.

In FATE, in order to take down a named baddie - one with stress and consequences of their own, in FATE you have to generate a *lot* of net (not just gross, but net) shifts over your opponent. Getting one +2, one time, ain't gonna cut it. Combat will seriously and deeply drag.

Unless, of course, you rewrite the stress/consequences system.

I talked about compels above. I would use them 90% of the time. I just take issue with the other 10%. Basically as they related to receiving Fate points.

Um, every compel is, "Get a Fate point for a complication". That's all a compel really is. So, "as they are related to receiving Fate points" is half of *every* compel. Not 10%. And it is the half that makes them acceptable to a player - they get something for allowing themselves to be screwed with. Right now, you seem to be saying something like, "I like toasters. I'll use them all the time. Except for the times when they make bread warm and brown - that bit I don't like so much." Maybe that's not what you mean, but I don't see how to read it otherwise.

 

[Emerikol]

Well I admit to never having played the game ever. I'm sure I could do a better job reading. I came here not from a position of knowledge but just throwing out ideas to see what you guys would say.

Maybe I should look at Fudge.

I thought about just giving the player an extra experience point whenever they have a compel. I guess my idea for a Fate pool based on some in game reality might be too much change.

My motives for considering Fate
1. I like a simple system that is DM empowered. Fate seems that way.
2. I like the idea of a system where I can construct my own games (via aspects and skills) that fit the setting perfectly.
3. I like the dice.
4. I like the ladder.
5. I like the skill pyramid approach.


I think I will look at Fudge and maybe modify it. Thanks.