Race life expectancy issues

[Anthtriel]

One thing that always bothered me about D&D is the assumption that elves live at least ten times as long as humans do, yet still usually accomplish less in their life.

The common level 1 human adventurer at level 1, about 18 years old knows more (has more skills and a feat) than the elvish adventurer at over a hundred years. What exactly do elves do all the time anyway?

Now I know that 4E won't do what would be required to solve this issue (cut elf life expectancy to 200 years at most), but don't you think it's about time it gets done?
Near immortal elves worked great for Tolkien, but I really don't think it works great for most other fantasy worlds, and it certainly does not work well for RPGs. Not at all.

 

[Green Knight]

Now I know that 4E won't do what would be required to solve this issue (cut elf life expectancy to 200 years at most)

You wouldn't need to do that to solve the problem. Just make them mature much more quickly. If elves were adults at about the age of 20 rather then 110, then there would be no problem, even if they were to go on to live for 700 years.

 

[BASHMAN]

Or they could just make elves better at everything and give them an ECL mod...

 

[Relique du Madde]

Or maybe Elves are extremely slow learners

 

[Goken100]

In my house rules, Elves get a -2 to Wisdom to reflect being young and feeling immortal and superior. However, every hundred years or so they'd get a +1 to Int and Wis, so aged Elves would be superior to most of the folks around. That just won't affect the young Legolas types that are going on adventures.

 

[Psion]

One thing that always bothered me about D&D is the assumption that elves live at least ten times as long as humans do, yet still usually accomplish less in their life.

The common level 1 human adventurer at level 1, about 18 years old knows more (has more skills and a feat) than the elvish adventurer at over a hundred years. What exactly do elves do all the time anyway?

Now I know that 4E won't do what would be required to solve this issue (cut elf life expectancy to 200 years at most), but don't you think it's about time it gets done?

Absolutely not. Quite to the contrary, I was aggravated that they cut the lifespan of elves in 3e.

The problem I have is assuming that adult age scales more-or-less proportionally with venerable age. It just shatters my SOD to have 1st level elves and dwarves be over 100 years old.

IMC, I put age categories on an exponential curve. A beginning elf IMC is more likely to be 40 or so years old, rather than 100.

 

[Anthtriel]

Absolutely not. Quite to the contrary, I was aggravated that they cut the lifespan of elves in 3e.

The problem I have is assuming that adult age scales more-or-less proportionally with venerable age. It just shatters my SOD to have 1st level elves and dwarves be over 100 years old.

IMC, I put age categories on an exponential curve. A beginning elf IMC is more likely to be 40 or so years old, rather than 100.

That's better, sure, but then unless you do something drastic, there are (or should be), a couple of extremely wise and powerful Elves around, and you have the LotR problem where being something other than a elf, or someone with elf blood or elf connections basically means that you suck.

It's hard (though not impossible) to imagine a world in which 1000 year old elves, who are sometimes more intelligent than humans to start with, somehow get pushed to the side by some upstart humans. How can a human wizard compete with his elven colleague who has done the same thing for a couple of centuries?
The existing campaign worlds do a very poor job at it (as far as I'm concerned, I suppose the majority disagrees)

 

[Psion]

That's better, sure, but then unless you do something drastic, there are (or should be), a couple of extremely wise and powerful Elves around, and you have the LotR problem where being something other than a elf, or someone with elf blood or elf connections basically means that you suck.

If you don't assume that levels are an inevitable result of age--and given most NPCs are 1st level commoners, why should they--this result is not in the least bit inevitable. If you make elves and dwarves a dwindling race (as in LotR) but humans a populous one, but make level a measure of heroism as much as age, then high level humans are as common as high level elves.

That said, my classic campaign world DOES assume that longer lived races typically do have a few additional levels. Not a lot, mind you... elves and dwarves will be fielding units of 2nd-4th level where humans field 1st-2nd. But I think that's consistent with the flavor of these races having legendary skill.

The idea of social implications you bring up doesn't arise if you don't use the very WotC, very-un-LotR convention of integrated societies.

 

[Anthtriel]

If you don't assume that levels are an inevitable result of age--and given most NPCs are 1st level commoners, why should they--this result is not in the least bit inevitable. If you make elves and dwarves a dwindling race (as in LotR) but humans a populous one, but make level a measure of heroism as much as age, then high level humans are as common as high level elves.

It works to some extent for warrior types, but is quite hard to justify for wizards and the like. You could say that some are more talented than others, but then elves are usually portrayed as more capable in magic than humans. And even if you assume humans are the best wizards, it still hardly justifies the extreme difference in time available. It doesn't pop up in LotR that much, because magic is weaker and less accessible. Elves don't benefit that much from knowing tons more than humans (and even then they are portrayed as superior to humans in virtually every way, and every powerful human has elf blood).

The idea of social implications you bring up doesn't arise if you don't use the very WotC, very-un-LotR convention of integrated societies.

That's precisely my problem. Long aged elves are a staple that has been copied in nearly all fantasy. But to make that work, the game world needs to accommodate it. Elves and elfen society needs to be very different.
As Fantasy slowly (finally) starts to develop away from Tolkien, some staples need to reexamined, to make sure they still work. It is my belief that thousand year old elves don't work, don't work at all, in a world where they live and work side by side with normal humans, as is the case in current Forgotten Realms and Eberron.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

I've always gone with the assumption that elves are not just long lived humans with pointy ears but have a much different mentality than humans.

Chief among the changes is that they are far too complacent by humans standards. Less likely to apply themselves as rigorously as humans, far more likely to accept things as they are.

Of course, my elves are typically the "Dying of the Light" kind.