Races of Destiny,Chameleon, floating feat?

[Glyfair]

But the class ability says you can select ANY feat, and that is a specific exception.

I'd argue against it. Ruling this way would open a can of worms.

For example, the Psychic Warrior can take a "Psionic Feat" as his bonus feat. There are epic bonus feats, can a non-epic Psychic Warrior take a "Psionic Epic Feat" for his bonus feat?

Nothing in the rules specificilly limits Epic feats to Epic characters, except for the section that lists a limited number of ways of getting Epic feats. Arguing that it's non-exclusive could allow non-epic characters to gain epic feats, in some circumstances.

 

[Ditch]

I've read this whole thread and now I'm confused. What the OP suggested is that IF you are epic... 21+, that you qualify to take epic feats and so a bonus feat would count. Now people are saying that what's to stop you from taking them before 21? Well, you aren't epic so that would stop you. I see no reason why you can't take them as bonus feats as an epic character. It's not like you are going to tip the scales at 21+. Everything you do and fight from then on should be.. well, epic.

To sum it up, IMHO, go for it. It won't break the game world. By level 30 you can have like 7 or 8 epic feats anyway, what's one more?

 

[Glyfair]

What the OP suggested is that IF you are epic... 21+, that you qualify to take epic feats and so a bonus feat would count. Now people are saying that what's to stop you from taking them before 21? Well, you aren't epic so that would stop you.

Except that isn't a limitation that's spelled out in the rules, other than the section that states "these are the way you can pick up these feats." If you say that "that section doesn't apply, because there can be other ways of learning feats" then you are opening up all sort of options, as written, to gain Epic feats. This includes options for non-epic characters to get Epic Feats.

In fact, I saw a thread on the WotC forums recently where someone explicitly stated that a Chameleon could get Epic Feats as a non-epic character, because the ability says any feat (and Epic Feats are feats). I wouldn't be suprised if the OP started this thread because of that discussion.

Yes, a DM certainly can allow Chameleons to use the extra feat ability to get an Epic Feat, if they choose. They can even allow non-epic characters to get them. Still, that's always the case.

 

[Thanee]

Correct, there is no minimum level prerequisite for taking epic feats, the minimum results from other sources. The 21st+ level limitation for epic feats is only an indirect restriction, which is implied by the ways you can gain epic feats, namely from your normal feats you gain every three levels starting at 21st and from epic classes, which you cannot begin to take levels in before 21st level.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Squire James]

The class ability reads like a specific exception to a general rule, so I would basically allow an epic feat to be chosen if the character qualifies. The EHB rules obviously never considered epic feats being chosen before 21st level, though the spirit of the rules imply that this shouldn't happen. So, it is a hole in the rules that the DM may choose to rectify. I would add a "hidden prerequisite" of "Character Level 21" to all epic feats.

Then the class ability is pretty straightforward: if the character has a Character Level of 21 or more, his "floating feat" can be an epic feat. Otherwise, not. This might cause a re-evaluation of the Chameleon PrC, since this does change the power level of the class...

 

[Sil]

The above quote specifies... It's a list of ways to gain epic feats.

It is A (one of) list of ways to gain epic feats. It doesn not claim to be exhaustive or complete.

The statements about epic feats are not that different from geting non epic feats. Lets look at non-epic for a moment. The same rules exsist saying you get non epic, or "normal feats" in the following ways, and lists them. If the only way to get such feats was the ways detailed, then the Chameleons class ability would be meaningless, because you can only get feats in the way listed, and this is not one of the ways.

Again, Cham itself says you must qualify for the feat. What does this mean if feats may only be granted fron class or character levels? It is obviously an exception to the class and character rules (epic or non epic.)

Is is not safe to assume that a epic character that otherwise meets the feats requirements may take an epic feat?

 

[Thanee]

Is is not safe to assume that a epic character that otherwise meets the feats requirements may take an epic feat?

Absolutely not, no.

Epic feats can be gained in the two ways listed + any other way, which specifically mentions *epic* feats to be gained.

That's exactly how it works for normal feats, too. You gain them only every 3rd character level (one at 1st) + any other way, which specifically mentions feats to be gained.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ditch]

I retract my argument. I was confused as to what exactly the floating feat did. Now that I understand it, I'm not sure I'd allow it to be an epic feat afterall. I'm not sure what I was thinking at the time I argued in favor of it.. lol.

 

[Sil]

Same as you cannot pick epic fighter feats when you gain levels in nonepic fighter, although you can select fighter feats and epic fighter feats also have 'fighter feats' in their name.

In the DMG, p209, it says "Whenever an epic character gains a new feat, it can be from the players handbook or one of the feats below" (epic feats follow)
Also the Epic Level Handbook, page 8, under "Adding a second class" it says "Whenever an epic character gains a new feat, it can be from among the ones listed in the Player’s Handbook or one of the feats listed below."

This suggests that anytime an epic character can add a feat, an epic feat may be chosen.

While I agree that fighter feats are an excellent case that make your point that you need the epic specificaly named; but only IF an epic character cannot choose an epic feat when taking a second class. It seems the DMG and the ELH refute this. The ELH is 3.0, and the errata does not change this. Is there a 3.5 source that contradicts the ELH? Assuming there is not 3.5 replacement for the ELH, then the ELH is primary source for Epic rules, correct?

What is the reason these rules are disregarded? I probably missed something, as I have never played epic before.

 

[Sil]

bump

Still looking for feed back on last post.