Races of Stone: Battlesmith too front-loaded?

[Jeff Wilder]

The first level of battlesmith gives a d10 hit die, +1 BAB, +2 Fortitude save, +Wisdom modifier to warhammer damage, bonus Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, and three bonus effective caster levels for crafting arms and armor. (So my 7th cleric/1st battlesmith would be effectively 10th level for crafting arms and armor.)

That seems awfully good to me. Am I wrong that it's a great deal in exchange for a level of cleric?

I do have to take Endurance, but crafted mithril plate armor will make that worthwhile.

Thoughts?

 

[Crothian]

the HD, saves, BAB are all about what tou get for any class so no big deal there. Wisdom binus to warhamers is about worth a feat, craft arms and armor is a feat, and bonus to caster level for that feat is good too. So, yay, it might be a little front loaded. Skill points 2+ ? And what are the requirements?

 

[jaker2003]

What's the retail value on Races of Stone (I've been scared to shell out more cash on another book I might not read)?

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

It's a pretty good book. Much better than Races of Destiny.

 

[Crothian]

how does it compaire to a book that was actually good?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I liked races of stone.

 

[Enforcer]

I like the book, but I'm a sucker for dwarves. It's got nice cultural information, a glossary of dwarf phrases, and I like the PrCs a lot. The Goliaths I couldn't care less about, the gnome information is probably cool if you like gnomes (I don't, but the Blade Bravo class makes a gnome almost worth it), and I hate the new and different gods they added for all the races--I prefer the FR dwarf and gnome pantheons.

As for the Battlesmith:

The prereqs are Heavy Armor proficiency (boom, it's pretty much down to Fighters, Paladins, and Clerics), Race Dwarf, BAB +5 (11th level for Wizards and Sorcerers), Craft (Armorsmithing OR Weaponsmithing) 10 ranks--7th level requirment right there, Endurance, and Weapon Focus (Warhammer). The character must also have created a dwarvencrafft weapon (like masterwork, but slightly better...crafted like masterwork but with DC22 check) and used it in battle. Reliably crafting a dwarvencraft weapon requires a total Craft bonus of at least +12 (so you can take 10 on the dwarvencraft part).

It's harder to qualify for than you think. Sure, a Dwarf Fighter, Paladin, or Cleric can get the feats--easy for the Fighter, somewhat painful for the Paladin and Cleric (the Cleric has to get Warhammer proficiency--which can be accomplished via Racial substitution levels or the War domain if there's a Dwarven god who favors Warhammers and allows the War domain).

But, all three classes have lousy skill points. And it's somewhat hard to craft the dwarvencraft weapon...it takes a long time and requires a high Weaponsmithing bonus. Oh, and if you want the Armor bonus abilities at levels 2 and 4, you need to have Armorsmithing as well (at least a +10 bonus if you want to make your own masterwork armor so you can enchant it and get the Flesh of my flesh bonus)--that's both of your skill points every level for a Fighter, Paladin, or Cleric if you don't have an Int bonus.

For any class without Heavy Armor proficiency, the Battlesmith sucks. Rangers, Bards, and Rogues have to spend two feats to get up to Heavy Armor, Barbarians one feat, and forget about Wizards and Sorcerers. And a Druid wearing heavy armor and wielding a warhammer? Nuh uh.

As for the Cleric, giving up a level of spellcasting for a net of 2 crafting spellcaster levels (you would have had one more spellcaster level for crafting had you stuck with Cleric) seems to be a fair trade to me. That's one more level it'll take you to get Raise Dead and other higher-level Cleric spells. The trade off is you'll get a nice bonus to damage with any warhammer you've crafted yourself, given that a Cleric will have a nice Wisdom score. And crafting arms and armor is very nice, no doubt about it.

However, a Cleric who takes Craft Arms & Armor at level 9 is going to have full spellcasting (Raise Dead, Flame Strike, Mass CLW, True Seeing, Righteous Might and two Symbols) and only be slightly behind a Cleric 8/Battlesmith 1 for crafting--and they'll be limited to the same enhancement bonus of +3. The Battlesmith will forever be catching up for spellcasting while the Cleric will be catching up for enchanting. I'd rather have the spells--Righteous Might beats the Wisdom bonus to warhammers any day.

The full BAB is nice for the Cleric, that's for sure, but the good Fort save is irrelevant--all PrCs have one good save (it'd be much better if the Battlesmith had good Reflex saves for some reason). And they still get crappy skill points.

*shrugs* I don't think the Battlesmith is too front-loaded, but that's me. My Dwarf Paladin 8/Hammer of Moradin 3 will probably take Endurance at level 12 so he can get Battlesmith 1 at 13th, but I'll still be nowhere near the party's big bruiser as far as damage goes. And, with the Paladin's crappy spell list, I'll still need help to enchant my hammer with everything I want on it (I'm thinking Thundering Holy Adamantine Warhammer of Shock +2 ).

Oh, keep in mind a Fighter/Battlesmith can only enchant stuff to have an enhancement bonus...all the special ability enchants require spells. Clerics don't have a perfect spell list for enchanting either.

 

[Stalker0]

All that's nice...but I'm losing a caster level for spells. so...no thanks

 

[Atherlos]

The sacred bonus to AC from flesh of my flesh only works in heavy armor. Would you give the player this bonus if he wears mithral plate?

-- Atherlos

 

[Darkness]

The sacred bonus to AC from flesh of my flesh only works in heavy armor. Would you give the player this bonus if he wears mithral plate?

Mithral: "Most (i.e., medium and heavy) mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations."

Flesh of my flesh is not a limitation, thus the armor doesn't count as one category lighter. Meaning it's heavy armor.