D&D 4E Raiders of Oakhurst: A 4E Fan Playtest Adventure
Xorn
First Post
I made a custom spellbook module, and I just force load it for the players (so it's in their library, and can be drug onto their Spells tab of the character sheet).
I put At-Will in level 1, Encounter in level 2, and Daily in level 3. It's functional. If you send me a message over there (Xorn on the forum) I can get you some more details.
I put At-Will in level 1, Encounter in level 2, and Daily in level 3. It's functional. If you send me a message over there (Xorn on the forum) I can get you some more details.
Duckforceone
First Post
So I ran my first playtest tonight. And I must admit I have been looking forward to this for some time.
Downloaded the PHB lite, and the raiders of Oakhurst scenario. Got hold of the program “magic set editor” and started typing in all the characters powers, to make it a lot easier on the new players. They work great when printed out through the software, and put into card sleeves with a blank backside.
This as my players stated, actually made it easier for them to figure out, than reading all the columns on the back of the character sheet.
But first, let me introduce the cast.
To my direct left, I had Skamos Redmoon, the tiefling wizard. An old hand at dnd and rpg’s in general, he read it all and understood right away all the skills at his disposal.
After that, came his girlfriend, playing Tira Duskmeadow, the half-elf warlock. While having played rpg’s before, it was over 5 years since her last experience, making her quite rusty in picking up rules at the start.
Further down the row, I had Kathra Ironforge, dwarven fighter. Also a dnd expert, and quite fast to pick up the rules without problems.
At the end of the table, was our complimentary party member, not in person, but in spirit. This spot was tribute to Gary E Gygax, with a full set of dice laid out, a note sheet, and a pencil, and a complimentary cold soda.
To my immediate right, was the party’s human cleric, Erias the sunlord. Again an old hand at dnd and rpg’s, he also quite quickly picked up the rules and started exploring them and finding lots of holes.
Next to him, a total rpg virgin sat. Corrin Reedson, Halfling paladin. My first rules explanation, went right over his head, as I mostly went over what the rules meant instead of explaining how to do them. Though with the help of the cleric, he soon understood most of it, though still needed some guidance.
With our party filled and ready, we started out with the first encounter.
The fighter went in first. When he saw the Kobolds roasting the chickens over the fire, he stated, “They are all mine”, and blocked the entrance so the other characters could not go past him. This he shouted loud, so I ruled that Ichi-ichi heard him, and started sounding the alarm.
One of the Kobold’s charged the fighter, while the others hung back and tried to hit with their spears. This all failed miseraly. Then ichi-ichi joined the fight and moved down towards the fighter.
The fighter then charged the kobold minions around the fire, and started bashing them.
The others started beating on ichi-ichi, while the wizard stole a roasted chicken from the fireplace with his magehand. This netted him a +1 on his next roll due to good fun.
At round two, 4 more minions arrived, all of them charging the fighter, with ichi-ichi moving back and grouping up with all the minions. Most of the minions was quickly dispatched, as the wizard nuked them all with a burst attack, including hitting the fighter for 8 points of damge. This left a wounded ichi-ichi and 1 minion.
Then round 3 arrived, and Pik and Otto-wombo arrived, staying by the stairs and using ranged attacks to pepper the warlock and fighter. The warlock was hit with a firepot, and started burning.
The fighter and paladin charged the two, and left the rest of the party to mob up the leftovers.
When varkaze arrived in round 4, he was immediately attacked by all the spell casters, while the two fighters wounded the two kobolds left. B y round 5, varkaze used his force pulse, and quickly fled back where he came from. And the two kobolds succumbed to their wounds. The party chose wisely not to follow.
Then they became smart, so the wizard decided to scout on ahead. Rolling a 1 on his stealth check, he went towards King Meepo’s chamber.
I had decided that since I forgot to send a warning to him, he was hiding under the blankets, and the spider was hidden in the ceiling.
The wizard moves into the room, and spots the shivering blankets, and decides to look under them and find the king. Now the king only speaks draconic, and no player characters can speak that, so I missed out on some fun solution. Though pleading for his life in draconic, the mage decides to fire a magic missile at him. They roll for initiative, with the spider and meepo getting around 19 and 18, while the wizard rolled an 8.
The spider then drops behind the wizard, and proceeds to crit on it’s death from above attack. Then meepo lunges with his rapier crits, and the wizard goes to a merciful -6 hp (the crit alone would have taken him beyond -10 but I was nice).
The party hears his death rattle, so they start running up. Meanwhile the spider hides again and meepo makes his escape through the secret door.
The fighter charges in, seeing nothing, just stands in the middle of the room. The paladin arrives after him, spots the spider, which then proceeds to drop on the fighter. Quickly the rest of the party arrives and after a short battle, they kill the spider without problems.
They get the wizard back on his feet, and proceeds back, not even thinking about how the kobold king escaped.
They then enter the room, where the hobgoblins have already fortified themselves. Standing behind the large table they turned over, I ruled they had full cover, while shooting at the characters.
The fighters in the party, then proceeded to flank the warcaster and warrior, while the casters in the party, flanked the archers forcing them to make melee attacks instead.
It became a bit of a stalemate for some time, with not much damage being dished out, and the hobgoblin warrior failing to hit anything 5 turns in a row. Then the archers went down and the warcaster, leaving the warrior to get beaten up quite fast.
The party rested for awhile, and learning from past mistakes, the warlock decided to scout ahead instead. Failing just as well with another 1 on stealth, she went near the cave opening, and quickly retreated seeing the empty cave.
The party reformed and moved into the area. Seeing the ledge, they started moving up that, and when the last one had crossed the river, leaving the casters at the back, I charged up the dragon and meepo. Meepo attacked from the corner all the way up the top of the ledge, while the dragon jumped those at the back, at the bottom of the ledge. The dragon used it’s breath, then spent an action point to use it’s darkness. This really hindered the characters, as they had to blindly try and escape the area. I ruled that they had to roll a perception to see if they lost a sense of direction DC 15. If they did, they would go in a random direction.
The dragon wounded the wizard, and meepo started attacking the fighter from range. All the characters then moved outside the darkness, with all but the wizard charging towards poor meepo. The wizard circled around the other way, going behind the dragon and wanting to cast spells at meepo from across the room.
The dragon left the darkness in place, as that is the way I read it, that it emanates from where it’s cast, and can be sustained there, as a darkness following the caster, would be a bit too much. This hindered the party for quite some time, while the dragon dove beneath the lake.
A long fight with meepo ensued, with the fighter almost never hitting him due to bad rolls, and the others trying to get around the darkness. The cleric made it up near the fighter, and so did the warlock. Then the dragon jumped up from the water, and attacked them all from the side. Doing a wonderful recharge of the breath weapon, it fired it off again. Then the warlock moved, and it fired of it’s instant recharge breath, and downed the warlock. On it’s turn, it proceeded to down the paladin as well.
This forced the cleric to heal the paladin with his last heal, who then had to lay on hands on the warlock.
At this time, the warlock and wizard had to leave, so we decided to end it there. With a clear win for the dragon and meepo, though meepo was near death.
The party was a bit bummed about meeting an unwinnable encounter, but they did state that had it been regular characters, they would have run after round two.
This run through with rules explanation and starting up, took roughly 4-5 hours.
After this I asked the players what they thought :
Wizard : He loved the new system, quite a lot of tactics, and had a really fun time. And was definitely up for the next adventure when “keep on the shadowfell” comes out.
Warlock : Liked it a lot, though due to a lot of bad dicerolls in the beginning, really warmed up to it in the end. Also a sure player at the next adventure time.
Fighter : liked it quite good, but was a bit miffed at not having as many powers to choose from as the other players. Though after we explained that some of his passive skills such as marking and hitting people shifting, also was something, though I did not give him the possibility as I knew he could do this. So he warmed a bit more to it. He is also a sure in, on the next adventure, and likes that all has something to do.
Cleric : While he found some problems with the rules, this is because of the lite rules system. He liked it a lot, and was really having fun. Also looking forward to the next adventure in this new system.
Paladin : While he had some trouble in the start, and couldn’t so fast grasp all the tactical options, he had a lot of fun, and found it a pleasant way to spend an evening. Would also like to try it again.
So overall, I must say it went great.
We had some rules problems, as second wind doesn’t seem to state what kind of action it requires except a second wind action. But due to the fighters use of it as a minor action, we ruled it a standard action to use it. Though in hindsight, I guess it should probably have been a move action.
Also, the paladin’s divine challenge. My god is it overpowerd in the state it’s in. I had read some about it, and modified it so that if the paladin moved away from the target, the spell would discontinue. This did not help much, because the players first thought up that they could just move the target away from the paladin, giving them free, no save damage against a real hard to hit enemy. After I ruled that out, they just moved the paladin close, put the fighter out in front and the other characters, making a nice long path towards the paladin, where the marked creature would have to subject itself to 2-4 Opportunity attacks to reach the paladin.
Free no save damage, with no to hit roll or anything, is way overpowered for first level.
So from now on, the rule is the paladin may not move away or the spell ends, and also a save ends. Though this won’t help much as it’s a minor action and is just recast without trouble.
At best I’d like it to be not close burst 5, but close only. And with the state that as soon as the paladin is not adjacent, the challenge ends.
Personally, I love the new system, it was a breeze to gm, and really really fun having to think of good tactics. Cannot wait for the complete rules to come out, so we can see how the final product is.
Well thanks for listening, input is welcome on my rulings.
EDIT :
also, i want to thank all you that already posted a recount of your adventures, they were a great inspiration for me to read.
Oh and a note to other gm's. When you hand out the character sheet, keep a copy for yourself, so you don't have to ask for the character sheet, everytime you want to close read a rule.
Downloaded the PHB lite, and the raiders of Oakhurst scenario. Got hold of the program “magic set editor” and started typing in all the characters powers, to make it a lot easier on the new players. They work great when printed out through the software, and put into card sleeves with a blank backside.
This as my players stated, actually made it easier for them to figure out, than reading all the columns on the back of the character sheet.
But first, let me introduce the cast.
To my direct left, I had Skamos Redmoon, the tiefling wizard. An old hand at dnd and rpg’s in general, he read it all and understood right away all the skills at his disposal.
After that, came his girlfriend, playing Tira Duskmeadow, the half-elf warlock. While having played rpg’s before, it was over 5 years since her last experience, making her quite rusty in picking up rules at the start.
Further down the row, I had Kathra Ironforge, dwarven fighter. Also a dnd expert, and quite fast to pick up the rules without problems.
At the end of the table, was our complimentary party member, not in person, but in spirit. This spot was tribute to Gary E Gygax, with a full set of dice laid out, a note sheet, and a pencil, and a complimentary cold soda.
To my immediate right, was the party’s human cleric, Erias the sunlord. Again an old hand at dnd and rpg’s, he also quite quickly picked up the rules and started exploring them and finding lots of holes.
Next to him, a total rpg virgin sat. Corrin Reedson, Halfling paladin. My first rules explanation, went right over his head, as I mostly went over what the rules meant instead of explaining how to do them. Though with the help of the cleric, he soon understood most of it, though still needed some guidance.
With our party filled and ready, we started out with the first encounter.
The fighter went in first. When he saw the Kobolds roasting the chickens over the fire, he stated, “They are all mine”, and blocked the entrance so the other characters could not go past him. This he shouted loud, so I ruled that Ichi-ichi heard him, and started sounding the alarm.
One of the Kobold’s charged the fighter, while the others hung back and tried to hit with their spears. This all failed miseraly. Then ichi-ichi joined the fight and moved down towards the fighter.
The fighter then charged the kobold minions around the fire, and started bashing them.
The others started beating on ichi-ichi, while the wizard stole a roasted chicken from the fireplace with his magehand. This netted him a +1 on his next roll due to good fun.
At round two, 4 more minions arrived, all of them charging the fighter, with ichi-ichi moving back and grouping up with all the minions. Most of the minions was quickly dispatched, as the wizard nuked them all with a burst attack, including hitting the fighter for 8 points of damge. This left a wounded ichi-ichi and 1 minion.
Then round 3 arrived, and Pik and Otto-wombo arrived, staying by the stairs and using ranged attacks to pepper the warlock and fighter. The warlock was hit with a firepot, and started burning.
The fighter and paladin charged the two, and left the rest of the party to mob up the leftovers.
When varkaze arrived in round 4, he was immediately attacked by all the spell casters, while the two fighters wounded the two kobolds left. B y round 5, varkaze used his force pulse, and quickly fled back where he came from. And the two kobolds succumbed to their wounds. The party chose wisely not to follow.
Then they became smart, so the wizard decided to scout on ahead. Rolling a 1 on his stealth check, he went towards King Meepo’s chamber.
I had decided that since I forgot to send a warning to him, he was hiding under the blankets, and the spider was hidden in the ceiling.
The wizard moves into the room, and spots the shivering blankets, and decides to look under them and find the king. Now the king only speaks draconic, and no player characters can speak that, so I missed out on some fun solution. Though pleading for his life in draconic, the mage decides to fire a magic missile at him. They roll for initiative, with the spider and meepo getting around 19 and 18, while the wizard rolled an 8.
The spider then drops behind the wizard, and proceeds to crit on it’s death from above attack. Then meepo lunges with his rapier crits, and the wizard goes to a merciful -6 hp (the crit alone would have taken him beyond -10 but I was nice).
The party hears his death rattle, so they start running up. Meanwhile the spider hides again and meepo makes his escape through the secret door.
The fighter charges in, seeing nothing, just stands in the middle of the room. The paladin arrives after him, spots the spider, which then proceeds to drop on the fighter. Quickly the rest of the party arrives and after a short battle, they kill the spider without problems.
They get the wizard back on his feet, and proceeds back, not even thinking about how the kobold king escaped.
They then enter the room, where the hobgoblins have already fortified themselves. Standing behind the large table they turned over, I ruled they had full cover, while shooting at the characters.
The fighters in the party, then proceeded to flank the warcaster and warrior, while the casters in the party, flanked the archers forcing them to make melee attacks instead.
It became a bit of a stalemate for some time, with not much damage being dished out, and the hobgoblin warrior failing to hit anything 5 turns in a row. Then the archers went down and the warcaster, leaving the warrior to get beaten up quite fast.
The party rested for awhile, and learning from past mistakes, the warlock decided to scout ahead instead. Failing just as well with another 1 on stealth, she went near the cave opening, and quickly retreated seeing the empty cave.
The party reformed and moved into the area. Seeing the ledge, they started moving up that, and when the last one had crossed the river, leaving the casters at the back, I charged up the dragon and meepo. Meepo attacked from the corner all the way up the top of the ledge, while the dragon jumped those at the back, at the bottom of the ledge. The dragon used it’s breath, then spent an action point to use it’s darkness. This really hindered the characters, as they had to blindly try and escape the area. I ruled that they had to roll a perception to see if they lost a sense of direction DC 15. If they did, they would go in a random direction.
The dragon wounded the wizard, and meepo started attacking the fighter from range. All the characters then moved outside the darkness, with all but the wizard charging towards poor meepo. The wizard circled around the other way, going behind the dragon and wanting to cast spells at meepo from across the room.
The dragon left the darkness in place, as that is the way I read it, that it emanates from where it’s cast, and can be sustained there, as a darkness following the caster, would be a bit too much. This hindered the party for quite some time, while the dragon dove beneath the lake.
A long fight with meepo ensued, with the fighter almost never hitting him due to bad rolls, and the others trying to get around the darkness. The cleric made it up near the fighter, and so did the warlock. Then the dragon jumped up from the water, and attacked them all from the side. Doing a wonderful recharge of the breath weapon, it fired it off again. Then the warlock moved, and it fired of it’s instant recharge breath, and downed the warlock. On it’s turn, it proceeded to down the paladin as well.
This forced the cleric to heal the paladin with his last heal, who then had to lay on hands on the warlock.
At this time, the warlock and wizard had to leave, so we decided to end it there. With a clear win for the dragon and meepo, though meepo was near death.
The party was a bit bummed about meeting an unwinnable encounter, but they did state that had it been regular characters, they would have run after round two.
This run through with rules explanation and starting up, took roughly 4-5 hours.
After this I asked the players what they thought :
Wizard : He loved the new system, quite a lot of tactics, and had a really fun time. And was definitely up for the next adventure when “keep on the shadowfell” comes out.
Warlock : Liked it a lot, though due to a lot of bad dicerolls in the beginning, really warmed up to it in the end. Also a sure player at the next adventure time.
Fighter : liked it quite good, but was a bit miffed at not having as many powers to choose from as the other players. Though after we explained that some of his passive skills such as marking and hitting people shifting, also was something, though I did not give him the possibility as I knew he could do this. So he warmed a bit more to it. He is also a sure in, on the next adventure, and likes that all has something to do.
Cleric : While he found some problems with the rules, this is because of the lite rules system. He liked it a lot, and was really having fun. Also looking forward to the next adventure in this new system.
Paladin : While he had some trouble in the start, and couldn’t so fast grasp all the tactical options, he had a lot of fun, and found it a pleasant way to spend an evening. Would also like to try it again.
So overall, I must say it went great.
We had some rules problems, as second wind doesn’t seem to state what kind of action it requires except a second wind action. But due to the fighters use of it as a minor action, we ruled it a standard action to use it. Though in hindsight, I guess it should probably have been a move action.
Also, the paladin’s divine challenge. My god is it overpowerd in the state it’s in. I had read some about it, and modified it so that if the paladin moved away from the target, the spell would discontinue. This did not help much, because the players first thought up that they could just move the target away from the paladin, giving them free, no save damage against a real hard to hit enemy. After I ruled that out, they just moved the paladin close, put the fighter out in front and the other characters, making a nice long path towards the paladin, where the marked creature would have to subject itself to 2-4 Opportunity attacks to reach the paladin.
Free no save damage, with no to hit roll or anything, is way overpowered for first level.
So from now on, the rule is the paladin may not move away or the spell ends, and also a save ends. Though this won’t help much as it’s a minor action and is just recast without trouble.
At best I’d like it to be not close burst 5, but close only. And with the state that as soon as the paladin is not adjacent, the challenge ends.
Personally, I love the new system, it was a breeze to gm, and really really fun having to think of good tactics. Cannot wait for the complete rules to come out, so we can see how the final product is.
Well thanks for listening, input is welcome on my rulings.
EDIT :
also, i want to thank all you that already posted a recount of your adventures, they were a great inspiration for me to read.
Oh and a note to other gm's. When you hand out the character sheet, keep a copy for yourself, so you don't have to ask for the character sheet, everytime you want to close read a rule.
Last edited:
Duckforceone
First Post
RigaMortus2 said:
yeah i had the same action. I ruled that the firepot did standard damage, and then on the players turn they took the 2 points. The players use no action to make a save roll, at the end of their turn.
But yeah, there are no rules yet that they can willfully try to remove the fire, only by saves at the end of their turn.
CarlosDosBrickos
Explorer
Here's my playtesting session with a group of 5 folks at my local gaming group. Interesting results.
The players:
Me, Carl (DM): Played through basic, 1st, missed 2nd, then played a fair bit of 3/ 3,5. Novice DM.
Nick (Wizard): Fan of 1st edition DnD, and 80's games: Champions, Bushido, CoC etc. Always plays the wizard.
Dillon (Dwarven fighter): Avid board gamer, Bushido fan.
Col (Eladrin Ranger): 3rd edition fan, along with other RPGs
Jules (Warlock): 3rd edition fan
Bob (Cleric): Big fan of 3e
Jerv (halfling paladin): new to the group, not sure of his RPG background, but has obviously played a fair bit.
I'm guessing we were all in various throes of our thirties, except Jerv who was in his twenties. I was impressed at how open minded they all were going into the game. They all seemed willing to give the game a fair shot, and were all interested to find out what 4e was all about. None of them had been following developments about the 4e release though.
The adventure
The party assembled at the cave entrance and decided to send the ranger down first, armed with a bow. Sadly his stealth skills left a fair bit to be desired: he stumbled down the passageway, and within a few moments a gong was ringing loudly down below. So much for stealth.
This was a good opportunity to explain the passive stealth and perception checks, which are skill bonus plus 10. If you don't shout out you're being stealthy I assume your stealth to be the passive value, and compare that to either the passive Perception value of anyone in earshot, or an active check if that person is actively listening. This seemed to work well, and was easily accepted by the group as a sensible mechanic. On a side note, I like the way they've compressed the skill list significantly, folding separate 3.5 skills together (Athletics covers Jump, Balance etc, Stealth is Hide and Move Silently and so on). So the ranger decided to be sneaky, rolled very low, and alerted the kobolds below.
The ranger spotted a group of kobolds gathered around a fire, clambering to their feet and grabbing for their spears. The ranger got off a quick shot and ducked back behind cover, seeing something fall in front of him.
Despite the fact that the alarm had been sounded I gave the ranger a surprise attack. I explained that he might be better off using a power rather than a simple attack: we used Fox's Cunning (incorrectly as it turned out), allowing him to fire and then duck back around the corner of the passage. Actually he should have only been able to use that power in response to a melee attack. Ah well, early days!
The kobolds surged forwards, taking up strategic positions that proved fairly effective in the first couple of rounds. The party were all back to front, with the wizard and warlock at the front along with the ranger, busily soaking up the minions' attacks.
We went into initiative order, and all the squishies got the higher rolls, moving into striking range and blocking up the passageway for the heavy hitters. A pity it was only attacking with minions at this stage! Powers started to fly, mainly ranged attacks.
At last the fighter and paladin worked their way towards the front of the party, and the tide began to turn. Minions began to fall like chattel beneath the figher's cleave attacks.
The fighter was enjoying this, as his warhammer slammed one kobold into the next, taking them down two at a time. Party members slowly started to understand their roles. The wizard was getting the area attack thing, but rolling horribly. Over the course of the session he rolled three attacks that could have taken down multiple foes that instead turned the cooking fires into ineffectual (but pretty) showers of sparks. The paladin quickly got to grips with the various action phases, maximising his turns each round.
Most of the minions were down, and a cleave from the fighter took down the tougher skirmisher Ichi Ichi too. I had expected the arrival of Otto Wamba and Pik to pose the party some problems, but Otto in particular struggled, first sending a firepot into the stream (pshht) and then a gluepot into the ceiling. His nerves were clearly getting the better of him. A shame, we never did get to try out ongoing damage and saving throws. Seeing the way the wind was blowing Otto sent Pik off to warn the king, then bravely (or stupidly) held the line until he too was cut down.
I offered the party the option to take a breather or press on, and of course they raced after Pik, so encounter powers were not regained. I did warn them of this consequence, they were happy to press on.
The paladin led the charge, and nearly paid for his boldness; a deathjump spider sprang from the ceiling as he entered the throne chamber and missed it's Death from Above attack by a whisker. The paladin laid a divine challenge on the spider, compelling it to target him or take damage.
The party were pretty lucky here. Death from Above would have hurt the paladin a lot if it had hit. And the power never recharged during the remainder of the combat. With some slightly better rolls the paladin could easily have been killed in this battle, and with no remaining encounter powers the rest of the party might have struggled a bit more than they did.
The use of the markers to indicate bloodied or marked creatures/ party members was working nicely, making it easier to keep track of everything. It turns out the red and yellow Connect 4 peices exactly fit the bases of medium sized WotC minis
Meepo and his follower Pik leapt out from under a huge mound of animal skins, and Meepo's hand crossbow sent a vicious bolt into the paladin, who was now desperate to fall back and recuperate, but wary of leaving himself open to the spider's fangs as he retreated. Instead he held his ground, waiting for his allies.
The fighter took over the front line and the spellcasters were able target the spider, which was driven to attack the paladin. It leapt clear over the dwarf and pressed home its attack, but the cleric called down the power of his god and the spider died the a swirling glow of divine light.
Apart from Meepo's opening crossbow salvo (standard attack and Snap Shot as a minor action) the kobolds kind of sucked, being way out of their depth and with their backs to the wall. There was some good mobility (Prodigous Leap) from the spider in a fairly tight space. It was a cool monster to play.
Meepo shoved Pik forward, who did his best to protect his king, but he was badly outclassed. Behind him Meepo had his hands in the air, his battered copper crown proffered to the party. The party moved in and were on the verge of slaughtering the pathetic creatures when Meepo piped up in common;
"No kill Meepo! Meepo good kobold! Bad hogobs make Meepo do bad things, not Meepo's fault. Varkaze fault! Brave heroes, mighty heroes, you save Meepo! You take crown, yes? You be kobold king!"
The party bought it. After a brief interrogation the cleric took the crown and as king of the kobolds instructed Meepo and Pik to accompany them, near the back of the party. Down the stream they splashed, finally reaching the hogoblin chamber.
The hobgoblins were well prepared. An archer crouched behind an overturned table, with a warcaster behind him. Two soldiers held the front line, and proved tough to pass. And of course as soon as combat began the treacherous Meepo and his underling (who had not been disarmed, LOL) turned on the cleric.
This encounter really tested the party. They were fighting on two fronts, and their hobgoblin enemies were well organised and tough. The warcaster's force staff repeatedly blasted the lead party members over (with the exception of the sturdy dwarf), and the disciplined soldiers were proving tough to take down. The ranger took a lot of damage early on, and finally went down. Another blast from the warcaster finished him. At the back of the party the cleric was down and near death; only the heroics of the paladin brought him back from the brink.
The players were getting into their stride by now, calling out interrupts and class/ race features as they became relevant. Rules-wise they'd pretty much got it. They were tactically hamstrung by having to fight on two fronts though; the cleric and paladin were unable to to bolster the front line, and the ranger paid for that. With their most mobile striker down this battle was more static, which was to their enemy's advantage. The kobolds at the back were getting good mileage from their Shifty racial feature. They could shift 1 square a minor action meaning they would move, attack and then duck back out of reach. Without the fighter to keep them tied down (the Fighter loved his Combat Challenge immediate attack against any adjacent foe who Shifted: particularly handy against kobolds) the kobolds were able to duck in and out of combat to good effect.
Meepo made good his escape (with his crown), and now at last the hobgoblins were starting to crack as the party dug deep and hit the hobgoblins with everything they had. With the warcaster down the others soon fell.
Use of daily powers were instrumental in breaking through here. There was some disappointment at dailies missing and being blown though. It seemed a shame to save you toughest power the whole game only to see it fail on a poor roll. The Warlock in particular had some poor luck with the dice. The paladin did a good job boosting the fighter's AC with his Shielding smite power later on in the battle. With only one front to deal with the party were able to work as a team once more.
We left it there, not having enough time to tackle the last encounter. Given the state of the party by this point (one man down, many daily powers used) I think the dragon wouold have had little trouble inflicting a TPK.
Including the setup, rules intros and three encounters we'd played for about three and a half hours. By the end of it I think we all had a pretty good grip on the basic rules, and the game seemed to flow pretty well. I think with more encounters under their belts the party would have started to combine more effectively from a tactical point of view.
DMing 4e
From a DMing point of view I found it a lot of fun to run. I'm no expert, let's make this clear. This was as much a 4e DMing introduction for me as it was an introduction to DMing a PnP RPG. I've played the game for a long time, but only ever DMed online. So I was probably not the best candidate to run this. That said I found the rules pretty simple to deal with, and really enjoyed the DM role during the game. I'd want to get better at adding more of a creative narrative to events. I found that the descriptive stuff I can do online is much much harder to do off the cuff.
The crunch side was OK though. I made a few rules mistakes but nothing game-pausing, and the players were all very good at helping teach us all the game. They were a positive and cooperative bunch. I was able to field all the player questions reasonably well (I think). After the initial couple of rounds there were fewer rules questions, and they had mostly dried up by the hobgoblin battle. Most of the rules questions focussed around exactly how powers worked... I figure once players and DM know what the characters can do that part of player/ DM interaction would vanish. It seemed clean; no looking up rules at all; everything kind of makes sense and all fitted into the central mechanic. I wish I could better explain how this differed from 3.5, but it did, and I can't right now. I'll try if anyone is bothered. Everything was a bit simpler, but still worked.
The way the monsters were built was great as a DM, much better than 3.5; a simple bunch of powers with clear indications of how each monster team member acted during combat (kobold minion, kobold skirmisher, kobold slinger etc) made for easy and interesting combat. And the different powers did make the two different monsters played (kobolds and hobgoblins) feel quite different, at least to me. I loved the minions, and the way the "named" bad guys were so much more of a challenge. The "shifty" kobolds were a lot of fun until the fighter discovered their strong point was the Achilles heel he needed. I think if I were a better DM I could encourage some great roleplaying out of the game, but I have no idea if that is a version-specific thing.
I can really see how much fun it will be to create bad guy groups to take on your parties. The way you can create teams of enemies using minions, standard and elite enemies (or solo creatures if you want a big bad) seems much more interesting and intuitive to me than the monsters of 3.5. 4e monsters, dragons included, come out of the Monster Manual ready to play and all seemingly boasting unique fighting styles that make them feel subtly different as opponents. It also makes coming up with challenging encounters (from a devious tactical point of view rather than a hit them with heaps of HP and damage) a lot easier for a non rules-guru like me. I know my 3.5 pretty well, but some of the emergent stuff real I see from the true rules cognoscenti blows me away. I think 4e will put that sort of fun tactical encounter building within the reach of more players, and so hopefully encourage more people to want to DM. This bit I really love about 4e.
What did the players think?
I chatted with Bob and Col on the way home, and their verdict was fairly negative. Not that they didn't enjoy the game, but that it was too big a shift from the game they knew. This opinion was echoed by Nick, who replied to my request for comments about the game. Here's what he said.
Carl
Thanks for running it. My thoughts on 4th edition are the following:
1. It's a decent RPG, but it's not D&D. It didn't feel like D&D but like a bog standard fantasy game; more like a bastard child of Descent and Warhammer.
2. The system felt more like a minatures or boardgame rather than an RPG. Combat goes a lot slower than 1st or 2nd edition with all the new additions of actions, action points, surges and blooding. Having said that, those touches are quite nice and make for interesting tactical decisions but at the expense of role playing.
3. At 1st level, I thought characters could do too much. Too many abilities and hit points which led to a bit of complacency.
4. The wizard's spells seemed to be combat oriented and devoid of role playing or non combat spells.
5. I miss things like alignments and character class and race restrictions. I have no idea what Tieflyngs are but my character seemed OK.
To sum up, a good game system but a long way away from the game I've known and liked over the years. I give it a 6/10.
Nick
Some of his concerns may be to do with the fact that we were playing from a limited subset of the rules, that we were all learning the rules, and some may spring from my DMing ability (or lack thereof). But I think his concerns are genuine and honest, and are not couched in some of the "versionism" that has been prevelant on many D&D forums of late.
Is 4e D&D?
Was it fun? Well I enjoyed it. And I think despite most of the concern about change, what was played was enjoyed by the players. It was just... very different.
Was it D&D? Well, it was a short dungeon crawl. Against pretty mobile, versatile foes. Those bad guys put up a pretty reasonable fight. And those bad guys were fun and easy to DM. Had the party reached the way-higher level solo boss monster (the level 4 solo young black dragon) I'm pretty sure it would have been a TPK. Which was part of the point of the playtest; the first 3 encounters were pitched at the right XP total to challenge the party. The last was way over, to see if the encounter level rules worked well. The battles forced some tactical thinking, or at least (I hope!) some thought about how not to do things next time. So a quick bit of hack'n slash, minus the RP.
But was it D&D? Well, I remain undecided. It was certainly very different in feel to 3e. But is it more different than 1st to 3rd edition for example? I'm really not sure. Was 3e "not D&D" to 2nd edition players? I'd stopped playing by that transition, so I'm not sure, but I seem to remember there was a lot of resistance to change then too. I guess the only way to answer the "Is it D&D" question is to have a pretty good idea of what you think D&D is. Is it the mechanics? And if so did D&D become "less" D&D as it went from Basic to AD&D to 2nd to 3rd and now to 4th? Was THAC0 part of what made D&D? Or is the iconic storytelling stuff more important: beholders and planar travel and Orcus and Drizzt, wizards and goblins and dwarves?
I guess it must be somewhere between the two. There's a flavour the game needs to retain that will dictate whether players of previous versions accept this game as an evolution or dismiss it as an imposter. One quick hack and slash playtest won't answer that question. Perhaps the best it can do is shed a little more light on the ultimate answer, but at this stage we're all still blind men with an elephant .
What seems to have changed most for me is that 4e has gone to an entirely exceptions-based mechanic. There is a very simple basic ruleset (roll a d20, add bonus, compare to defense), and everything else pretty much breaks that rule in one way or another. The interest of this mechanic ultimately lies in how these exceptions interact with one another. I'm sure this will become increasingly significant at higher levels. This feels very different to previous incarnations of D&D, and definitely shares a mechanic with CCGs that I don't think D&D has had before, at least in core (I think some of these ideas have appeared in 3.5 books like Book of the Nine Swords before). The use of cards to represent powers worked pretty well I thought, largely because it was tied to that simple card game mechanic: interrupt cards were waved as I tried to do something nasty, cards were turned over to signify used powers. At will, encounter and daily powers worked well as cards.
Is that too big a shift away from D&D was to make this product D&D? Or are the rules just background facilitators for storytelling? To what extent do the mechanics determine the flavour of a game?
You'll need to decide that one for yourselves
I'll be running the adventure with another group in a week or so, so I'll provide feedback from that session too. Hope this has been of some use to you folks. And many thanks to all the folks who have provided the materials to make these playtests possible.
The players:
Me, Carl (DM): Played through basic, 1st, missed 2nd, then played a fair bit of 3/ 3,5. Novice DM.
Nick (Wizard): Fan of 1st edition DnD, and 80's games: Champions, Bushido, CoC etc. Always plays the wizard.
Dillon (Dwarven fighter): Avid board gamer, Bushido fan.
Col (Eladrin Ranger): 3rd edition fan, along with other RPGs
Jules (Warlock): 3rd edition fan
Bob (Cleric): Big fan of 3e
Jerv (halfling paladin): new to the group, not sure of his RPG background, but has obviously played a fair bit.
I'm guessing we were all in various throes of our thirties, except Jerv who was in his twenties. I was impressed at how open minded they all were going into the game. They all seemed willing to give the game a fair shot, and were all interested to find out what 4e was all about. None of them had been following developments about the 4e release though.
The adventure
The party assembled at the cave entrance and decided to send the ranger down first, armed with a bow. Sadly his stealth skills left a fair bit to be desired: he stumbled down the passageway, and within a few moments a gong was ringing loudly down below. So much for stealth.
This was a good opportunity to explain the passive stealth and perception checks, which are skill bonus plus 10. If you don't shout out you're being stealthy I assume your stealth to be the passive value, and compare that to either the passive Perception value of anyone in earshot, or an active check if that person is actively listening. This seemed to work well, and was easily accepted by the group as a sensible mechanic. On a side note, I like the way they've compressed the skill list significantly, folding separate 3.5 skills together (Athletics covers Jump, Balance etc, Stealth is Hide and Move Silently and so on). So the ranger decided to be sneaky, rolled very low, and alerted the kobolds below.
The ranger spotted a group of kobolds gathered around a fire, clambering to their feet and grabbing for their spears. The ranger got off a quick shot and ducked back behind cover, seeing something fall in front of him.
Despite the fact that the alarm had been sounded I gave the ranger a surprise attack. I explained that he might be better off using a power rather than a simple attack: we used Fox's Cunning (incorrectly as it turned out), allowing him to fire and then duck back around the corner of the passage. Actually he should have only been able to use that power in response to a melee attack. Ah well, early days!
The kobolds surged forwards, taking up strategic positions that proved fairly effective in the first couple of rounds. The party were all back to front, with the wizard and warlock at the front along with the ranger, busily soaking up the minions' attacks.
We went into initiative order, and all the squishies got the higher rolls, moving into striking range and blocking up the passageway for the heavy hitters. A pity it was only attacking with minions at this stage! Powers started to fly, mainly ranged attacks.
At last the fighter and paladin worked their way towards the front of the party, and the tide began to turn. Minions began to fall like chattel beneath the figher's cleave attacks.
The fighter was enjoying this, as his warhammer slammed one kobold into the next, taking them down two at a time. Party members slowly started to understand their roles. The wizard was getting the area attack thing, but rolling horribly. Over the course of the session he rolled three attacks that could have taken down multiple foes that instead turned the cooking fires into ineffectual (but pretty) showers of sparks. The paladin quickly got to grips with the various action phases, maximising his turns each round.
Most of the minions were down, and a cleave from the fighter took down the tougher skirmisher Ichi Ichi too. I had expected the arrival of Otto Wamba and Pik to pose the party some problems, but Otto in particular struggled, first sending a firepot into the stream (pshht) and then a gluepot into the ceiling. His nerves were clearly getting the better of him. A shame, we never did get to try out ongoing damage and saving throws. Seeing the way the wind was blowing Otto sent Pik off to warn the king, then bravely (or stupidly) held the line until he too was cut down.
I offered the party the option to take a breather or press on, and of course they raced after Pik, so encounter powers were not regained. I did warn them of this consequence, they were happy to press on.
The paladin led the charge, and nearly paid for his boldness; a deathjump spider sprang from the ceiling as he entered the throne chamber and missed it's Death from Above attack by a whisker. The paladin laid a divine challenge on the spider, compelling it to target him or take damage.
The party were pretty lucky here. Death from Above would have hurt the paladin a lot if it had hit. And the power never recharged during the remainder of the combat. With some slightly better rolls the paladin could easily have been killed in this battle, and with no remaining encounter powers the rest of the party might have struggled a bit more than they did.
The use of the markers to indicate bloodied or marked creatures/ party members was working nicely, making it easier to keep track of everything. It turns out the red and yellow Connect 4 peices exactly fit the bases of medium sized WotC minis
Meepo and his follower Pik leapt out from under a huge mound of animal skins, and Meepo's hand crossbow sent a vicious bolt into the paladin, who was now desperate to fall back and recuperate, but wary of leaving himself open to the spider's fangs as he retreated. Instead he held his ground, waiting for his allies.
The fighter took over the front line and the spellcasters were able target the spider, which was driven to attack the paladin. It leapt clear over the dwarf and pressed home its attack, but the cleric called down the power of his god and the spider died the a swirling glow of divine light.
Apart from Meepo's opening crossbow salvo (standard attack and Snap Shot as a minor action) the kobolds kind of sucked, being way out of their depth and with their backs to the wall. There was some good mobility (Prodigous Leap) from the spider in a fairly tight space. It was a cool monster to play.
Meepo shoved Pik forward, who did his best to protect his king, but he was badly outclassed. Behind him Meepo had his hands in the air, his battered copper crown proffered to the party. The party moved in and were on the verge of slaughtering the pathetic creatures when Meepo piped up in common;
"No kill Meepo! Meepo good kobold! Bad hogobs make Meepo do bad things, not Meepo's fault. Varkaze fault! Brave heroes, mighty heroes, you save Meepo! You take crown, yes? You be kobold king!"
The party bought it. After a brief interrogation the cleric took the crown and as king of the kobolds instructed Meepo and Pik to accompany them, near the back of the party. Down the stream they splashed, finally reaching the hogoblin chamber.
The hobgoblins were well prepared. An archer crouched behind an overturned table, with a warcaster behind him. Two soldiers held the front line, and proved tough to pass. And of course as soon as combat began the treacherous Meepo and his underling (who had not been disarmed, LOL) turned on the cleric.
This encounter really tested the party. They were fighting on two fronts, and their hobgoblin enemies were well organised and tough. The warcaster's force staff repeatedly blasted the lead party members over (with the exception of the sturdy dwarf), and the disciplined soldiers were proving tough to take down. The ranger took a lot of damage early on, and finally went down. Another blast from the warcaster finished him. At the back of the party the cleric was down and near death; only the heroics of the paladin brought him back from the brink.
The players were getting into their stride by now, calling out interrupts and class/ race features as they became relevant. Rules-wise they'd pretty much got it. They were tactically hamstrung by having to fight on two fronts though; the cleric and paladin were unable to to bolster the front line, and the ranger paid for that. With their most mobile striker down this battle was more static, which was to their enemy's advantage. The kobolds at the back were getting good mileage from their Shifty racial feature. They could shift 1 square a minor action meaning they would move, attack and then duck back out of reach. Without the fighter to keep them tied down (the Fighter loved his Combat Challenge immediate attack against any adjacent foe who Shifted: particularly handy against kobolds
) the kobolds were able to duck in and out of combat to good effect.Meepo made good his escape (with his crown), and now at last the hobgoblins were starting to crack as the party dug deep and hit the hobgoblins with everything they had. With the warcaster down the others soon fell.
Use of daily powers were instrumental in breaking through here. There was some disappointment at dailies missing and being blown though. It seemed a shame to save you toughest power the whole game only to see it fail on a poor roll. The Warlock in particular had some poor luck with the dice. The paladin did a good job boosting the fighter's AC with his Shielding smite power later on in the battle. With only one front to deal with the party were able to work as a team once more.
We left it there, not having enough time to tackle the last encounter. Given the state of the party by this point (one man down, many daily powers used) I think the dragon wouold have had little trouble inflicting a TPK.
Including the setup, rules intros and three encounters we'd played for about three and a half hours. By the end of it I think we all had a pretty good grip on the basic rules, and the game seemed to flow pretty well. I think with more encounters under their belts the party would have started to combine more effectively from a tactical point of view.
DMing 4e
From a DMing point of view I found it a lot of fun to run. I'm no expert, let's make this clear. This was as much a 4e DMing introduction for me as it was an introduction to DMing a PnP RPG. I've played the game for a long time, but only ever DMed online. So I was probably not the best candidate to run this. That said I found the rules pretty simple to deal with, and really enjoyed the DM role during the game. I'd want to get better at adding more of a creative narrative to events. I found that the descriptive stuff I can do online is much much harder to do off the cuff.
The crunch side was OK though. I made a few rules mistakes but nothing game-pausing, and the players were all very good at helping teach us all the game. They were a positive and cooperative bunch. I was able to field all the player questions reasonably well (I think). After the initial couple of rounds there were fewer rules questions, and they had mostly dried up by the hobgoblin battle. Most of the rules questions focussed around exactly how powers worked... I figure once players and DM know what the characters can do that part of player/ DM interaction would vanish. It seemed clean; no looking up rules at all; everything kind of makes sense and all fitted into the central mechanic. I wish I could better explain how this differed from 3.5, but it did, and I can't right now. I'll try if anyone is bothered. Everything was a bit simpler, but still worked.
The way the monsters were built was great as a DM, much better than 3.5; a simple bunch of powers with clear indications of how each monster team member acted during combat (kobold minion, kobold skirmisher, kobold slinger etc) made for easy and interesting combat. And the different powers did make the two different monsters played (kobolds and hobgoblins) feel quite different, at least to me. I loved the minions, and the way the "named" bad guys were so much more of a challenge. The "shifty" kobolds were a lot of fun until the fighter discovered their strong point was the Achilles heel he needed. I think if I were a better DM I could encourage some great roleplaying out of the game, but I have no idea if that is a version-specific thing.
I can really see how much fun it will be to create bad guy groups to take on your parties. The way you can create teams of enemies using minions, standard and elite enemies (or solo creatures if you want a big bad) seems much more interesting and intuitive to me than the monsters of 3.5. 4e monsters, dragons included, come out of the Monster Manual ready to play and all seemingly boasting unique fighting styles that make them feel subtly different as opponents. It also makes coming up with challenging encounters (from a devious tactical point of view rather than a hit them with heaps of HP and damage) a lot easier for a non rules-guru like me. I know my 3.5 pretty well, but some of the emergent stuff real I see from the true rules cognoscenti blows me away. I think 4e will put that sort of fun tactical encounter building within the reach of more players, and so hopefully encourage more people to want to DM. This bit I really love about 4e.
What did the players think?
I chatted with Bob and Col on the way home, and their verdict was fairly negative. Not that they didn't enjoy the game, but that it was too big a shift from the game they knew. This opinion was echoed by Nick, who replied to my request for comments about the game. Here's what he said.
Carl
Thanks for running it. My thoughts on 4th edition are the following:
1. It's a decent RPG, but it's not D&D. It didn't feel like D&D but like a bog standard fantasy game; more like a bastard child of Descent and Warhammer.
2. The system felt more like a minatures or boardgame rather than an RPG. Combat goes a lot slower than 1st or 2nd edition with all the new additions of actions, action points, surges and blooding. Having said that, those touches are quite nice and make for interesting tactical decisions but at the expense of role playing.
3. At 1st level, I thought characters could do too much. Too many abilities and hit points which led to a bit of complacency.
4. The wizard's spells seemed to be combat oriented and devoid of role playing or non combat spells.
5. I miss things like alignments and character class and race restrictions. I have no idea what Tieflyngs are but my character seemed OK.
To sum up, a good game system but a long way away from the game I've known and liked over the years. I give it a 6/10.
Nick
Some of his concerns may be to do with the fact that we were playing from a limited subset of the rules, that we were all learning the rules, and some may spring from my DMing ability (or lack thereof). But I think his concerns are genuine and honest, and are not couched in some of the "versionism" that has been prevelant on many D&D forums of late.
Is 4e D&D?
Was it fun? Well I enjoyed it. And I think despite most of the concern about change, what was played was enjoyed by the players. It was just... very different.
Was it D&D? Well, it was a short dungeon crawl. Against pretty mobile, versatile foes. Those bad guys put up a pretty reasonable fight. And those bad guys were fun and easy to DM. Had the party reached the way-higher level solo boss monster (the level 4 solo young black dragon) I'm pretty sure it would have been a TPK. Which was part of the point of the playtest; the first 3 encounters were pitched at the right XP total to challenge the party. The last was way over, to see if the encounter level rules worked well. The battles forced some tactical thinking, or at least (I hope!) some thought about how not to do things next time. So a quick bit of hack'n slash, minus the RP.
But was it D&D? Well, I remain undecided. It was certainly very different in feel to 3e. But is it more different than 1st to 3rd edition for example? I'm really not sure. Was 3e "not D&D" to 2nd edition players? I'd stopped playing by that transition, so I'm not sure, but I seem to remember there was a lot of resistance to change then too. I guess the only way to answer the "Is it D&D" question is to have a pretty good idea of what you think D&D is. Is it the mechanics? And if so did D&D become "less" D&D as it went from Basic to AD&D to 2nd to 3rd and now to 4th? Was THAC0 part of what made D&D? Or is the iconic storytelling stuff more important: beholders and planar travel and Orcus and Drizzt, wizards and goblins and dwarves?
I guess it must be somewhere between the two. There's a flavour the game needs to retain that will dictate whether players of previous versions accept this game as an evolution or dismiss it as an imposter. One quick hack and slash playtest won't answer that question. Perhaps the best it can do is shed a little more light on the ultimate answer, but at this stage we're all still blind men with an elephant .
What seems to have changed most for me is that 4e has gone to an entirely exceptions-based mechanic. There is a very simple basic ruleset (roll a d20, add bonus, compare to defense), and everything else pretty much breaks that rule in one way or another. The interest of this mechanic ultimately lies in how these exceptions interact with one another. I'm sure this will become increasingly significant at higher levels. This feels very different to previous incarnations of D&D, and definitely shares a mechanic with CCGs that I don't think D&D has had before, at least in core (I think some of these ideas have appeared in 3.5 books like Book of the Nine Swords before). The use of cards to represent powers worked pretty well I thought, largely because it was tied to that simple card game mechanic: interrupt cards were waved as I tried to do something nasty, cards were turned over to signify used powers. At will, encounter and daily powers worked well as cards.
Is that too big a shift away from D&D was to make this product D&D? Or are the rules just background facilitators for storytelling? To what extent do the mechanics determine the flavour of a game?
You'll need to decide that one for yourselves
I'll be running the adventure with another group in a week or so, so I'll provide feedback from that session too. Hope this has been of some use to you folks. And many thanks to all the folks who have provided the materials to make these playtests possible.
CarlosDosBrickos
Explorer
Another player responded to my request for feedback from last week's game. Here are his thoughts.
I am not a big D&D fan. I generally played it coz my friends did. Therefore I don't find myself having any affinity or fondness for the game. It does what it says on the tin and that is fine.
I am a novice 3rd ed player which is why I went for Ranger.
With hindsight I enjoyed the game more than I thought...
If I had made better use of surges to buff my HP I dont think I would have died... If the players had concentrated more on what the rules say we can do eg Action points, and not on what we cant we would have got further. Having attended the D&D seminar at UK gencon I sort of knew what to expect from the game.
My opinion is the same. New D&D is catering for the Warcraft generation and that is what the game needs if it is to survive. Your weapons do more damage but you have more hit points, you have more healing so you can go for longer...Simple. i think if we played the game again we would have a better handle on it.
I don't know if it was better, it kind of felt like "the same but differrent". Bits of the game are instantly recognisable, Str, Dex and Con etc, but the combat skill system could be from any game so will be easy to use in other genres and I don't know if a D&D purist will like that.
I will probably buy D&D 4th, but am not looking forward to it as much as waiting for new Dark Heresy books.
Cheers,
Cole
I am not a big D&D fan. I generally played it coz my friends did. Therefore I don't find myself having any affinity or fondness for the game. It does what it says on the tin and that is fine.
I am a novice 3rd ed player which is why I went for Ranger.
With hindsight I enjoyed the game more than I thought...
If I had made better use of surges to buff my HP I dont think I would have died... If the players had concentrated more on what the rules say we can do eg Action points, and not on what we cant we would have got further. Having attended the D&D seminar at UK gencon I sort of knew what to expect from the game.
My opinion is the same. New D&D is catering for the Warcraft generation and that is what the game needs if it is to survive. Your weapons do more damage but you have more hit points, you have more healing so you can go for longer...Simple. i think if we played the game again we would have a better handle on it.
I don't know if it was better, it kind of felt like "the same but differrent". Bits of the game are instantly recognisable, Str, Dex and Con etc, but the combat skill system could be from any game so will be easy to use in other genres and I don't know if a D&D purist will like that.
I will probably buy D&D 4th, but am not looking forward to it as much as waiting for new Dark Heresy books.
Cheers,
Cole
Xorn
First Post
Nice writeup! To answer your final question:
D&D to me has always been tactical fantasy combat wrapped in a free-form roleplaying package. 4E feels more tactical than 3E, but I really feel that exception-based rules will make it cleaner than 3E. I don't think 1E, 2E, or 3E had anything to facilitate RPing, which is why I call it free-form. I do think that 4E is going to help DMs that want to get more RP in their games do so, by giving them some basic groundrules to work with. But I don't think any RPG can make you roleplay, unless you just remove all the combat.
You bring up a really good point though--all of my games have ended with people saying the opposite of yours, "It FELT like D&D!". I agree (and this is NO insult) that a lot of this probably has to do with DMing style. I've done one delve from the player's side, and the DM was horrible--really, really bad--I wouldn't have liked any game he ran, and it sure as hell didn't feel like D&D.
I think 4E makes it easier for me to drop into narrative style DMing than 3E does. That is not to say that I can't run narrative style in 3E--but it felt like it comes easier in my 4E delves. Time will tell, right? I'm going to be DMing on Game Day for my local hobbyshop, so I'm jazzed as heck about that!
Oh, and I'm running this adventure live at the shop this coming Sunday (normally I play over VTT), and here's my redone maps for it: (My CC3-Fu is improving!) Note the battlemap printout is a fast draft, greyscale, with all effects and lighting turned off--I was just making sure it would print correctly before I loaded the 110# paper and turned on the color.
The Stone Table (VTT map)
The Stone Table (Tabletop map)
New question:
Lighting effects, yes or no for battlemaps? I was really trying to follow the SKG tiles style (so no light source shadowing) on this map, but after I had it all done (and looking plenty "SKGish") I decided to try out the light source wall shadowing, putting a light source on all the fires, plus one more to illuminate the dragon's lair (lichen), and I was pleasantly surprised with the result. But it does make the rest of the dungeon kind of dark, and I'm now kind of swinging back and forth on the issue--especially since a lot of the detail is lost when the lighting effects are applied.
D&D to me has always been tactical fantasy combat wrapped in a free-form roleplaying package. 4E feels more tactical than 3E, but I really feel that exception-based rules will make it cleaner than 3E. I don't think 1E, 2E, or 3E had anything to facilitate RPing, which is why I call it free-form. I do think that 4E is going to help DMs that want to get more RP in their games do so, by giving them some basic groundrules to work with. But I don't think any RPG can make you roleplay, unless you just remove all the combat.
You bring up a really good point though--all of my games have ended with people saying the opposite of yours, "It FELT like D&D!". I agree (and this is NO insult) that a lot of this probably has to do with DMing style. I've done one delve from the player's side, and the DM was horrible--really, really bad--I wouldn't have liked any game he ran, and it sure as hell didn't feel like D&D.
I think 4E makes it easier for me to drop into narrative style DMing than 3E does. That is not to say that I can't run narrative style in 3E--but it felt like it comes easier in my 4E delves. Time will tell, right? I'm going to be DMing on Game Day for my local hobbyshop, so I'm jazzed as heck about that!
Oh, and I'm running this adventure live at the shop this coming Sunday (normally I play over VTT), and here's my redone maps for it: (My CC3-Fu is improving!) Note the battlemap printout is a fast draft, greyscale, with all effects and lighting turned off--I was just making sure it would print correctly before I loaded the 110# paper and turned on the color.
The Stone Table (VTT map)
The Stone Table (Tabletop map)
New question:
Lighting effects, yes or no for battlemaps? I was really trying to follow the SKG tiles style (so no light source shadowing) on this map, but after I had it all done (and looking plenty "SKGish") I decided to try out the light source wall shadowing, putting a light source on all the fires, plus one more to illuminate the dragon's lair (lichen), and I was pleasantly surprised with the result. But it does make the rest of the dungeon kind of dark, and I'm now kind of swinging back and forth on the issue--especially since a lot of the detail is lost when the lighting effects are applied.
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CarlosDosBrickos
Explorer
Absolutely no insult taken Xorn. I think you're quite right, the DMing style probably has a lot to do with how the players experience the game, and I am a VERY green DM.
I'll be running it again this Friday, this time for a group of friends, rather than folks from my local gaming club, and it'll be interesting to see how it goes with a far less "gamer" group of players, and a tiny bit more DMing experience for me.
BTW, lighting effects work for me. Nice maps!
I'll be running it again this Friday, this time for a group of friends, rather than folks from my local gaming club, and it'll be interesting to see how it goes with a far less "gamer" group of players, and a tiny bit more DMing experience for me.
BTW, lighting effects work for me. Nice maps!
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