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D&D General Railroads, Illusionism, and Participationism

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pemerton

Legend
It's passive to the GM's story. The players are not driving play, they're consuming it. That's what the term means.
I don't have a strong view on the best adjective. That's partly why I find (clear) jargon more helpful - it identifies the phenomenon without relying on any particular standard of phenomenological accuracy! (Hardly a unique or unusual reason for preferring jargon.)

But anyway, for CoC and similar "participationist" play I think Edwards describes it pretty well:

Players get to contribute tons of Color, even content, but never outcomes or final-resolutions, and playing the character as conceived is the first priority​

He is actually talking about rules-lite games here, but a fuller quote shows him drawing the direct comparison to CoC-ish "high concept simulationism" (his phrase) and also emphasising that this can be situation-first play but of the form that I have called "living novel", rather than "story now":

I suggest that many self-described "rules-lite" or "story-oriented" role-playing games represent a derived version of the High Concept model, slanted heavily toward Situation - especially Situation which is under complete GM control, overt or covert. Players get to contribute tons of Color, even content, but never outcomes or final-resolutions, and playing the character as conceived is the first priority, sometimes taken to extremes of Actor Stance . . . . Character and Situation are prioritized with Color, with Setting next, and lastly the formal System, which is slanted strongly toward Drama-mechanics.​

I've already explained what he means by "High Concept". When he says "extremes of Actor Stance" he is not saying that all Actor Stance is extreme, but that some approaches place an extreme emphasis on it. And by "Drama-mechanics" he means Drama in the Jonathan Tweet sense of Fortune, Karma, Drama as modes of resolution (ie dice are rolled or cards drawn; static values are compared; a person with authority just gets to say - so casting a fireball spell in D&D is Drama that it takes place at all (ie provided it's their turn, the player gets to just say that they cast), Karma to determine the resource cost (ie a fixed spell slot cost) and then Fortune to work out the effect (ie the damage dice + saving throws)).

I think it's pretty easy to see that what he describes in that short passage covers a significant chunk of 5e D&D play. The extent to which it involves Force depends of course (and at least) on the extent to which the Drama mechanics are "official" or rather various sorts of informal/covert manipulations of or departures from the "formal/official" resolution processes. My impression is that there is no general agreement on this, because no general agreement on what constraints (if any) govern the the GM says what happens next part of the 5e playloop.

The Alexandrian really doesn't avoid railroading, he's more about moving from the blatant and obvious Force built into the modules into a much better prepared Illusionism. The stations are still left in play, they're just better hidden from view. I've read his rewrites of the APs. They're good, but they're still very much railroady stuff of doing the story but rather instilling the proper participationism covers (hooks, engaging story elements, etc.).
Node-based design and the associated three-clue rule - which seem to be what he is using, based on a quick skim of the page @Malmuria linked to - is a device for ensuring that the players declare the actions for their PCs that the GM wants them to, in order to keep within the intended boundaries (places, events) of the scenario.

So on this we are ad idem!
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
No, really not. The fact they're only interacting within the context of that story still doesn't make them passive. They're still doing a lot more than just absorbing the story, and that would be passive.
Passive is in reference to the driving of the game. It's not suggesting they do nothing. Play in 5e is about taking actions to get the GM to reveal more about the world or story. Play is focused on getting the GM to tell you things. Of course you're doing things, that's not what's passive. You're passive in the sense of creation versus consumption. You aren't creating story in normal Trad play, you're receiving it from the GM. You still have to do things to get the GM to do this.
 

Aldarc

Legend
It's not. I had a recurring 5e villain who wasn't supposed to get away the first time but did. He continued to be a thorn in the side of the PCs and escaped at least 3 other times that I can easily recall. The trick here wasn't to use Force, but to play a bad guy that would cut and run quickly. A few times, he used his escape plan right off the bat because the situation had already tilted against him.

Thing is, if he got killed or captured he got killed or captured. I never Forced his escape because I didn't care to. The fun way really having a bad guy the player hated and wanted dead but who's primary motivation was to get away.
Right, that's what I'd try to do....cut and run, and if he makes it and continues to do so, then you have your recurring villain. I think that's the best way to actually establish a recurring villain. Like it shouldn't really be a case of deciding when you create the NPC "this guy's gonna be a recurring villain right here".

And don't get me wrong....I used to do this kind of thing all the time back in the day. And this play group has consisted of the same core group who has been playing since those days....so I think those old campaigns and the fondness with which we hold them may also be at fault here.
I'm looking through a Quick Start for an Italian TTRPG - Fabula Ultima: a TTJRPG - but this game actually gives the Villain a limited number of "Ultima points" that operate similarly to Fate points, which the DM can use so that the Villain can make their escape (among other things), but a Villain's Ultima points never recharge. The game - which also lists 4e D&D, Ryuutama, Fate, Apocalypse World, Burning Wheel, and more as key influences - is meant to simulate JRPGs, where the villain escaping is a trope.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I'm looking through a Quick Start for an Italian TTRPG - Fabula Ultima: a TTJRPG - but this game actually gives the Villain a limited number of "Ultima points" that operate similarly to Fate points, which the DM can use so that the Villain can make their escape (among other things), but a Villain's Ultima points never recharge. The game - which also lists 4e D&D, Ryuutama, Fate, Apocalypse World, Burning Wheel, and more as key influences - is meant to simulate JRPGs, where the villain escaping is a trope.
Genre emulation tools are tight!
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
I'm looking through a Quick Start for an Italian TTRPG - Fabula Ultima: a TTJRPG - but this game actually gives the Villain a limited number of "Ultima points" that operate similarly to Fate points, which the DM can use so that the Villain can make their escape (among other things), but a Villain's Ultima points never recharge. The game - which also lists 4e D&D, Ryuutama, Fate, Apocalypse World, Burning Wheel, and more as key influences - is meant to simulate JRPGs, where the villain escaping is a trope.

That honestly sounds pretty cool assuming the rest of the game connects with that well. It’s thematic as hell, for sure.

I remember in the old TSR Marvel Super Heroes the villain could make a getaway by spending 40 Karma. Very similar.
 

Sometimes it's difficult to tell--it certainly seems that some of the most-commonly-cited uses of force involve unrevealed backstory.

A serious question: Outside of something with a keyed map of some sort (like a dungeon or a hexcrawl) how could one use unrevealed backstory in a way that wasn't force? I guess using it to frame a situation wouldn't be force (leaving aside any debate/s about situation-first or backstory-first). I think I've seen it said that using unrevealed backstory to adjudicate action resolution is force--is this only true if the GM is using that unrevealed backstory to point the narrative of the game in a specific direction, or toward a specific outcome?

Forgot to respond to this but I was just talking to folks and I answered it during that verbal conversation so I wanted to write what I said:

Unrevealed backstory can work as an input to action resolution and not be Force...IF

...the GM has skillfully done the work to telegraph the unrevealed backstory to the players sufficient to (a) pique their curiosity to poke and prod further at the situation or (b) draw a successful inference (in both cases correctly uncovering the backstory through skillful play for deployment downstream in future action declarations; eg, we have to get leverage x on NPC y or we can't parley with them...or if we want to avoid dragon x than route the journey through topography y rather than z).

Does this sound familiar? Like a soft move? It should.

The problem with this is three-fold:

1) Historically, D&D rulesets have been absolutely AWFUL at telling GMs how and why to do this (except in the case of building out dungeons and in managing the dungeoneering).

2) There is a strong segment of D&D culture that feels that there is such a fine line between soft moves (deft telegraphing) and soft-balling (clumsily giving them the answer) that they reflexively err well on the side of banal situation framing (claiming neutrality) to avoid soft-balling; so their soft moves are so soft that they're effectively disqualifying. And THEN...

3) ...Those same GMs will reflexively blame the players for crappy, unskillful play rather than reflecting on their own disqualifying framing because its paper thin and softer than Charmin. Then those same GMs will complain about their players to other GMs and those other GMs will reflexively "YEAH PLAYER'S SUCK I'LL DRINK TO THAT <FROTHY MUGS OF ALE CLASH>" rather than asking about the play and helping the GM reflect on their own framing.


So yes, unrevealed backstory can absolutely be an input into action resolution...IF the GM's soft moves (situation framing) have clearly sufficiently telegraphed the threat to provoke the players to poke/prod to learn more or so that they can draw the inference NOW for later downstream deployment.

But terribly crap advice on the how and the why > Poor GMing > Lack of reflection and humility > Cultural positive feedback loop to reflexively blame players for clumsy GMing.
 

pemerton

Legend
I don't really get how one would wake up from unconsciousness in such a place and not have it explicitly mean "this person has been up to no good." Like...sure, maybe they aren't guilty of one particular thing you thought they were, but especially as the result of a failed roll, this screams "suspicious manor-owner IS guilty!" to me. And that looks exactly like a blatant use of force: "I'm making the guilty person be this one and no other."
This puzzles me in two ways.

(1) Maybe they rescued me but thought I was dangerous? Maybe they're on holiday and their groundskeeper kidnapped me? Etc etc? I think there are multiple possibilities here - just as, when the PC in my BW game found the black arrows in the ruins of his brother's former workroom, his first instinct was to try and determine who had made them, his hope being that it would be someone other than his brother. His hope was dashed. (I can't recall with certainty, but I'm guessing he failed an Aura-Reading check.)

(2) How is this Force? It's not any sort of manipulation of backstory to predetermine a result. There's no fudging of dice. There's no formal or informal pressure placed on permissible action declarations. Isn't this exactly how reveals unfold in DW/AW play - ie hard moves reveal unwelcome truths, including about the identities of villains.

No one is supplying them; they've been stealing them. That's why the PCs were there in the first place--a player decided he needed a magic shield, so they went looking for one, but a 6- on Supply revealed that raiding on weapon caravans had heavily affected all weapons trade (but especially magic ones). They sought out a prominent weapons-merchant (via prior contacts), who offered money and a fancy magic shield as payment for solving her "my caravans are being raided" problem.
So wouldn't it be open - for instance - that the cultists have a spy/agent among the manufacturers, or in one or more of the caravans, or at the caravanserais?

In thinking about it, perhaps I've come across what the issue might be. (I want to emphasize perhaps; I still am not sure this is more than a gut feeling that has no rational explanation.) They feel like different types of ignorance. There is "ignorance-what/who" and "ignorance-why." "Ignorance-what/who" reflects a lack of understanding about the chain of events that produced a certain result and/or the persons responsible for those events. But the chain of events had to be whatever it always was, and the persons had to be whoever they were. It feels wrong, to me, to say explicitly that it is not only unknown but unknowable what the chain of events was and who conducted them up until the point that it is declared, and then forever after that is exactly what it always was and never anything else. "Ignorance-why" reflects a lack of understanding of the motive or purpose behind some event or behavior; in principle, you already know what the event was (e.g. in your example, someone getting possessed) but are trying to figure out the motive behind it. It feels perfectly natural, to me, that you not only don't know but couldn't know what a person's true motive was until the moment of a shocking reveal, and I have no problem with it being a declaration.
This goes right back to @Ovinomancer's post upthread - it's all just fiction being authored, and so doesn't matter.

Authoring a flower pot that was lovingly crafted by hand and has been sitting on the same sill for decades before a PC picks it up to use as an improvised weapon in a fight is no easier (nor much harder) than authoring a flower spot that spontaneously comes into being as the result of the workings of an Improbability Drive.

In all RPGing, participants all the time make up things that tend to imply causal histories - someone must have grown the grain that was milled into the flour that the baker used to make the bread that is served to the PCs in the tavern - without those causal histories ever being spelled out. Most "story now" resolution relies on deliberately leaving much of this fiction "loose" (DW even gives it a slogan - draw maps, leave blanks) so that it can be filled in later as is appropriate to establish further framing, or is determined by successful checks, or is helpful in narrating consequences of failure.

Locking in the "who" of causation in advance then feeds into action resolution - because now there are constraints on what further fiction can result, based on that established-but-unrevealed backstory. This is the whole premise of sandbox RPGing; but it sits in a more delicate relationship, I think, with an approach that encourages players to exercise substantial authority or at least influence over backstory (eg via asking questions of them and building on their answers), and that encourages outcomes of actions to have high salience to player-established goals/aspirations for their PCs. To spell these out: too much that is locked in, but unrevealed, can clash with the answers the players give to questions; and stuff that is locked in might turn out to provide the answer/outcome to some declared action, but at that moment of play may be of low salience to the player's established goal/aspiration for their PC.

There is a good discussion of how to handle this in the Burning Wheel Adventure Burner. And AW deals with this sort of thing, or at least closely related stuff, in its discussion of how to use fronts and their clocks.

From your posts I can't see how you reconcile your different, backstory-first approach with the standard (as in, book-prescribed) way of adjudicating and framing in DW. That's not a criticism. It's an observation.

I would argue that we can see some examples of this discontinuity playing out in ordinary fiction. Leia was established as Luke's twin sister in Return of the Jedi. But as early as the previous film, the writing includes stuff like her kissing him, which becomes deeply awkward if they were always intended to be related. It's pretty clear that they were inventing the story as they went along, retconning what they needed to (e.g. consider Luke's deep frustration at Obi-Wan's "from a certain point of view" line) in order to keep things going. That is the kind of problem I have with declaring the real killer or the like.
That just shows it can be done better or worse. All serial fiction depends on this sort of retconning. Frankly if my RPG campaigns could be half as compelling as the Star Wars trilogy I'd be pretty happy!

So while, yes, your "we found black arrows" is theoretically an alteration of the facts of the matter, in practice the only thing it actually changes about those past events is what the players know about the context of those events. The brother wasn't pure as the driven snow (unless "driven" means "driven-upon"!), he was already morally dubious. That doesn't make any part of those events play out any differently than they did before.
I personally find this a very significant misdescription.

What matters is not that black arrows were made <by someone or other>. It's that they were made <by the brother>. Hence, the possession is not <an innocent person is a victim of failed magic or Orcish magic> but rather <a sinister person finally came to their end, of being possessed by a Balrog>. That was a fundamental moment and revelation in play - unfolding over a failed Scavenging check (to use AW language, a soft move announcing the badness of the black arrows being there and hinting at worse> and then (I think) a failed Aura-Reading check (a hard move, driving home the irrevocable fact of who made the black arrows).

This was an epic moment of play, for me at least. And a regretful one, for the player who found his (as his PC's) conception of his brother dashed, all because he was greedily trying to find a different artefact in the ruined tower that he had written into his backstory. It couldn't have worked as it did if I adhered to your backstory-first norms of content-introduction. That's not a reason for you to change your practices, obviously; but is intended to illustrate why I think the situation-first/backstory-first contrast is of more than abstract theoretical interest.
 

pemerton

Legend
I'm looking through a Quick Start for an Italian TTRPG - Fabula Ultima: a TTJRPG - but this game actually gives the Villain a limited number of "Ultima points" that operate similarly to Fate points, which the DM can use so that the Villain can make their escape (among other things), but a Villain's Ultima points never recharge. The game - which also lists 4e D&D, Ryuutama, Fate, Apocalypse World, Burning Wheel, and more as key influences - is meant to simulate JRPGs, where the villain escaping is a trope.
In Prince Valiant, a NPC may have a Save in Combat special effect.

In MHRP, there are characters that have the ability to extract themselves if Doom Pool dice are spent - eg Dr Doom turns out to be a Doombot; or Nick Fury turns out to be a Life Model Decoy. Plus the general end-a-scene-by-spending-2d12 rule.

BW doesn't have anything similar.
 

Numidius

Adventurer
I guess in a backstory-first game the Black Arrows be revealed if both rolls were successes, and before that, the Gm curated the backstory and somehow play arrived exactly where them to be found.
Now my head aches...
 

pemerton

Legend
I guess in a backstory-first game the Black Arrows be revealed if both rolls were successes, and before that, the Gm curated the backstory and somehow play arrived exactly where them to be found.
I think in backstory-first, the black arrows should be placed in advance, with their origin already established.

In a railroad, the GM would make sure they get found. In a sandbox, maybe they would or maybe they wouldn't.
 

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