Rain of steel - too powerful?

[Kintara]

One problem with the power is that you want enemies to stay next to you and attack you, and this encourages them to vacate the premises. Even if you have everyone marked, you can still only take one interrupt action. All the enemies are going to shift away from you, so you'll probably have to stick with one of them. It's still certainly worth it. It's a great power. That said, it rewards scattering, which might not be ideal for the Fighter.

Crack the Shell and Dizzying Blow are both great against single targets. Crack the Shell drops the target's AC, which can improve damage for many members of the party at the same time (and it'll probably be encounter and daily powers because you don't want to waste them on a miss). Immobilization on a melee enemy can be perfect mitigation (or it can just tie down a particularly slippery foe), so Dizzying Blow can be great too. And they are both Reliable, which is worth remembering.

 

[FadedC]

One problem with the power is that you want enemies to stay next to you and attack you, and this encourages them to vacate the premises. Even if you have everyone marked, you can still only take one interrupt action. All the enemies are going to shift away from you, so you'll probably have to stick with one of them. It's still certainly worth it. It's a great power. That said, it rewards scattering, which might not be ideal for the Fighter.

Well monsters always have the option to scatter, if rain of steel is up or not. Presumably if doing so is advantageous, they would do it anyway so it doesn't matter if rain of steel is up. If scattering is not advantageous, then forcing them to do it is a pretty powerful effect.

 

[Kintara]

Well monsters always have the option to scatter, if rain of steel is up or not. Presumably if doing so is advantageous, they would do it anyway so it doesn't matter if rain of steel is up. If scattering is not advantageous, then forcing them to do it is a pretty powerful effect.

Let me put it like this: by activating the power you are actively providing a reason to shift away. It creates a reason to leave that wasn't there before. Claiming that they would shift away if it was to their advantage ignores the fact that Rain of Steel is creating its own reason. I would never claim that it turns the power into an outright liability. Make no mistake, it's a Daily power and it's useful and awesome. It's just a Daily power that relies on the enemies starting their turn adjacent to the Fighter. Monsters can attempt to avoid that by staying away and targeting someone else.

What I'm saying is that the other Dailies have something to offer as well. Crack the Shell is the perfect way to start the ball rolling on an alpha strike where all the other PCs drop their encounter and daily powers because you can just keep attacking with it until it finally goes off. That +2 effective chance to hit is exactly the sort of thing people tend to want before they risk their good attacks. And it stacks with Villain's Menace, too.

Dizzying Blow can be used to isolate a melee enemy so that it can't do any damage to you or anyone else until it gets unstuck. And once it saves, maybe you've had the opportunity to move away, and someone can drop a Slow, Daze, or another Immobilize on it until everything else is dead. Or maybe the ranged attackers will take it apart before anyone even bothers to melee it again (which very well may be, considering the kind of damage Dizzying Blow does on a hit).

 

[FadedC]

Let me put it like this: by activating the power you are actively providing a reason to shift away. It creates a reason to leave that wasn't there before. Claiming that they would shift away if it was to their advantage ignores the fact that Rain of Steel is creating its own reason.

Yep and that's part of what makes it so strong. Changing the situation from the monsters being able to do whatever they feel like to the monsters not being able to do whatever they feel like is always a good thing. Taking away options for your enemy is one of the strongest things you can do.

 

[Kintara]

Yep and that's part of what makes it so strong. Changing the situation from the monsters being able to do whatever they feel like to the monsters not being able to do whatever they feel like is always a good thing. Taking away options for your enemy is one of the strongest things you can do.

Well it doesn't literally take away options: it exacts a price under a certain circumstance. But you're always going to win the argument that the power is useful because it's a daily power. I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that the monsters can try to avoid it (and you), which might be what you want, and it might not. And I'm arguing that the other powers don't suck.

I mean, for instance, if you want to talk about taking away options, then Dizzying Blow is an example. Immobilization takes away options outright.

 

[Goblyn]

I disagree. When a ranger uses Twin Strike in your game, do you not take his magic bow into consideration? Of course you do. This is exactly the same.

But this is not the RAW. Check out PHB 276 under the example where Valenae attacks with her +2 thundering longsword. The only thing included in the 2w is the d8 damage roll; not the feat bonus nor the +2 enhancement bonus.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But this is not the RAW. Check out PHB 276 under the example where Valenae attacks with her +2 thundering longsword. The only thing included in the 2w is the d8 damage roll; not the feat bonus nor the +2 enhancement bonus.

The enhancement bonus is not part of 2[W], true.

But 2[W] is a damage roll.

"A magic weapon adds an enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls, so a +3 flameburst longbow adds +3 to all attack rolls and damage rolls made with the bow."

All damage rolls made with the bow.

If you have a power that deals 2[W], and you're using a +3 flameburst longbow, then when you make the damage roll with that weapon (2[W]), you add the enhancement bonus to it.

Weapon Focus? "You gain a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls with your chosen weapon group."

2[W] is a damage roll. If you're making that damage roll with the right weapon, add a +1 feat bonus to what you roll on 2[W].

-Hyp.

 

[FadedC]

Well it doesn't literally take away options: it exacts a price under a certain circumstance. But you're always going to win the argument that the power is useful because it's a daily power. I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that the monsters can try to avoid it (and you), which might be what you want, and it might not. And I'm arguing that the other powers don't suck.

I mean, for instance, if you want to talk about taking away options, then Dizzying Blow is an example. Immobilization takes away options outright.

Hmm....fair enough, though I kind of feel like my original point is being lost in this dicussion somewhere.

I can't disagree that monsters can run away from you and deprive you of some of your damage from rain of steel. Although you can always get at least one with it, and unless they are really going crazy running in all directions (which is really strong in it's own way) then you can probably get a few. I personally think even if you never get more then 1 a round this is still a vastly superior power, but you can always disagree with me on that.

What I was disagreeing about though was that it can be viewed as remotely bad in any possible way that rain of steel discourages monsters from clumping up around the fighter. The only time monsters would ever clump around the fighter anyway is if it was the best option for them. Discouraging the best option is a very good thing.

 

[Krensus]

I believe the way the powers are written invalidates the theory that enhancement and other bonuses aren't added to a damage roll. Listing a damaging ability as [W]+Strength modifier is somewhat redundant if [W] is all inclusive of strength and such. In fact, written like that, you would add twice your strength bonus to the attack. I don't think that the "[W]+Strength" entry is just a reminder, more that the "damage rolls" entry is telling you what you normally add.

In any case, despite its interaction with Come and Get It, I don't really see this power as being too crazy for a level 5 daily ability. It puts enemies in a pickle, but in my game it's tended to make the monsters scatter to attack the other players rather than the fighter because of the damaging area. Most of the time he ends up getting 2-3 mobs for one round with Come and Get It, then after he's used his Combat Superiority to lock one down, the rest shift out and charge a striker. After that, the most he hits is 2 for the most part. Annoying, but not overpowered IMO.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Bold is my emphasis. This is ambiguous, but I think the intent is if bonuses apply, then all bonuses apply, if no bonuses apply, then none do, not even magic bonuses.

That is my two cents, for what it is worth.

So, how much damage would Furious Smash do for my Dragonborn Warlord 16 with Strength 20, a +4 Bastard Sword and Weapon Focus (Heavy Blades)?

I think the key is that each of these effects note that they apply to weapon damage rolls. If you roll for damage, they apply.