Rangers and dual throwing weapons

[Ravingdork]

My brother is playing a pirate who throws axes at people and duel wields cutlasses (we used scimitar stats).

Therefore, he has a whole host of duel-wielding powers. My question is this: Many of the powers say he must have two melee weapons or a ranged weapon. What if he has two handaxes? Obviously he can attack with both of them in melee using the power, but can he throw both of them using the same power?

The verbiage of the rules text is kind of vague to say the least. He is clearly dual-wielding melee weapons, but he is throwing them, not using them in melee. What about a Ranger trained in Shuriken? Would he be able to throw two of them using this power? They aren't ever considered melee weapons unlike the axes. Would the Ranger need two in hand? Or does he just need one (and the second is drawn out as part of the power)?

 

[Obryn]

My brother is playing a pirate who throws axes at people and duel wields cutlasses (we used scimitar stats).

Therefore, he has a whole host of duel-wielding powers. My question is this: Many of the powers say he must have two melee weapons or a ranged weapon. What if he has two handaxes? Obviously he can attack with both of them in melee using the power, but can he throw both of them using the same power?

The verbiage of the rules text is kind of vague to say the least. He is clearly dual-wielding melee weapons, but he is throwing them, not using them in melee. What about a Ranger trained in Shuriken? Would he be able to throw two of them using this power? They aren't ever considered melee weapons unlike the axes. Would the Ranger need two in hand? Or does he just need one (and the second is drawn out as part of the power)?

They're also ranged weapons.

I see no reason whatsoever to disallow that. It sounds like a neat concept.

-O

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

Once you throw something, it is a ranged weapon. So if he wants to use a ranged weapon power with them it's fine. If he wants to use a melee power with them it's fine.

I don't have the wording of all the Ranger powers memorized but they usually say two melee or a ranged weapon if I recall ( on the kinds we are talking about that can be used for both melee and ranged). Just don't forget that the stat to hit and that adds damage ( if any) usually changes when you switch from melee to ranged. Double check each power you use to make sure you are in compliance.

 

[Mort_Q]

Many of the ranged Ranger powers specify the use of a bow, if I recall correctly. Might want to re-read those.

Or not.

 

[Verdande]

It sounds kinda wonky to me, but I believe that Lucas is right.

When you throw an axe, it becomes a ranged weapon, since that's what you're using it for. To make sure you're not bending the rules, make sure each power works with ranged weapons and dual-wielding weapons.


But, that's a pretty cool concept, I personally might let a little rule-bending happen.

 

[Holy Bovine]

My brother is playing a pirate who throws axes at people and duel wields cutlasses (we used scimitar stats).

Therefore, he has a whole host of duel-wielding powers. My question is this: Many of the powers say he must have two melee weapons or a ranged weapon. What if he has two handaxes? Obviously he can attack with both of them in melee using the power, but can he throw both of them using the same power?

The verbiage of the rules text is kind of vague to say the least. He is clearly dual-wielding melee weapons, but he is throwing them, not using them in melee. What about a Ranger trained in Shuriken? Would he be able to throw two of them using this power? They aren't ever considered melee weapons unlike the axes. Would the Ranger need two in hand? Or does he just need one (and the second is drawn out as part of the power)?

I assume he is a Ranger? Even though handaxes are listed as both melee and ranged weapons I don't think they would enable your brother's PC to use a melee weapon only exploit at range. For example

Jaws of the Wolf
You use your weapons to hedge in your foe and trick him into
exposing a weak spot, at which point you strike.

Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Attack: Strength vs. AC (main weapon and off-hand weapon),
two attacks
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage per attack.
Miss: Half damage per attack

Seems pretty clear it is meant to represent a hand to hand fighter bracketing his foe with a fast & close swings before going for that crucial opening. I think making it usable at range would become a bit unbalancing.

 

[TimeOut]

You forgot the important part of the ability: Standard Action - Melee weapon

Edit: But using ranged powers with handaxes is fine, IMHO.

 

[Vayden]

I'm playing a ranger with a similar concept right now - dual hand-axes. The way my DM and I are handling it, if the power specifies 2 melee weapons, I can only use them for melee. If the power specifies 2 melee weapons or a ranged weapon (like Twin Strike), then I can throw them or hit with them.

The one odd spot we've run into is that the ranged powers specify that the attack is Dex vs AC, while hand-axes, as heavy thrown, are usually strength vs AC. We decided the power description takes precedent, so I use Str for melee w/ the axes, and Dex for ranged.

 

[Shabe]

Just one thing to look out for, I can't remember where but I think there was an official source somewhere on these boards saying that for each target of a ranged attack you need a seperate thrown weapon, even if they are magically returning ones.

Now what i'd be really interested in, is a power with multiple targets if one is in melee you hit that one, then throw one at a second and the other at a third, with the rules as written i don't think you could do that because you either choose the melee or ranged version of the power, but if I was DMing i think i'd allow the player to switch between melee and ranged, provoking OAs as normal of course.

 

[azarias]

It depends on the wording of the power.

(1) If the power allows both melee and ranged weapons, then he can use it with the hand axes in melee or at range. Example: Careful Attack

(2) If the power only allows melee weapons, then he can use it with the hand axes in melee, but not at range. Example: Hit and Run

(3) If the power only allows ranged weapons, then he can use it with the hand axes at range, but not in melee. Example: Split the Tree

From the Equipment chapter:

'A melee weapon with the heavy thrown or light thrown property counts as a ranged weapon when thrown and can be used with ranged attack powers that have the weapon keyword'

...Now, although that looks clear enough, there is a complication, and I reckon it needs an errata: Ranger ranged weapon powers use Dex. The hand axe is a heavy thrown weapon, and uses Strength. If you use Careful Attack with a handaxe at range, do you use Str (as the equipment entry states) or Dex (as the power states)?

Specific beats general doesn't necessarily help here: the texts for the power and for the weapon are both very specific cases.

My hunch is that the power adjusts the weapon, and so supersedes the base weapon reading. But I've got nothing to back that up.

It makes a big difference to the character build, I can see, since if Str applies to the handaxe both in melee and at range, you can invest heavily in Strength.