[rant] Spiked Chains are for Power Gamer

[Verdigris]

Hey all,

I was reading through my new 3.5 ediction PHB this weekend, generally feeling that the world was aright, happy with 99.9% of what I read when I came across an old, festering, pet peeve of mine which I thought I would share:

Which power gamer down at WoTC got ahold of the Spiked Chain rules and made it so rediculously overpowered?

1. It deals as much damage as a falchion and other venerable (historically tested) two handed weapons.

2. It trips enemies as well as billhooks and whips.

3. It threatens twice as much area as any other weapon despite its obvious lack of balance.

4. If a spiked chains are so great, why do they only seem to appear in fantasy games? Why isn't Excallibur a spiked chain?

5. Their drawback? They take exotic weapon proficiency. Big deal.

Etc.

I vote myself first president of the "Knock Spiked Chains Down a Link" committee. Who's with me?

[Note for the record: I am aware that I can house rule the spiked chain to be less of a toy for power gamers. That is beside the point in a rant.]

 

[sithramir]

I agree that its insanely powerful. In fact in one of my games i'm going to give it to my druid for when he shape changes into that dire ape just to show it. Oh um he's 30' away? Smack he moved? Smack. Once I get whirlwind its all over! For my friends too muah.

 

[Darklone]

It reminds me of the monofilament whip in SR.

Yes, it's pretty close to broken.

Thanks to the game gods that my players like style more than efficiency (at least till now).

 

[Tabarnak Smokeblower]

Is it really that overpowered? It deals crappy damage for a 2-handed weapon (and has a poor crit), trip is a good manoeuvre, but I don't think it comes up too often in a game (IMO), the greatest advantage is the reach, but you need an additional feat to really maximize its use (combat reflexes) which is only useful if you have a high dex, and if you DO have a high dex, you'll probably spend another feat to finesse the weapon.

All in all, I haven't had problems in my game with it.

TS

 

[Skaros]

1. It deals as much damage as a falchion and other venerable (historically tested) two handed weapons.

No it doesnt. The Falchion has a crit range of 18-20/x2, as opposed to the x2 crit range of the spiked chain. The Falchion does a lot more damage on average, and doesn't require a special feat to use.

2. It trips enemies as well as billhooks and whips.
[/B]

The whip is better at tripping, due to its 15' reach. Spiked chain is versatile, in that it can be used for either damage OR tripping, but whip is more useful for simply tripping opponents.

However, lack of threatened area does give spiked chain the advantage here, since you can use your AOO's to trip. I say the whip is just a suboptimal weapon...doesn't mean spiked chain is overpowered.

3. It threatens twice as much area as any other weapon despite its obvious lack of balance.
[/B]

True, though the other reach weapons do more damage. They either have X3 crit multipliers, or do more straight up damage.

4. If a spiked chains are so great, why do they only seem to appear in fantasy games? Why isn't Excallibur a spiked chain?
[/B]

Who said they were great in real life? Combat in general is a lot different in real life (and, in fact, more deadly and debilitating).

5. Their drawback? They take exotic weapon proficiency. Big deal.
[/B]

I think it is a flavorful, and versatile weapon...no doubt. I'm not convinced it is overpowered or 'munchkin'.

Anyone ever seen one used in a campaign? Does it overshadow other well built characters' attack forms? We've never had anyone choose that weapon style.

Skaros

 

[The Souljourner]

I've used one before in a campaign. It's definitely not overpowered. The +2 to trip and disarm is miniscule. How often do people actually use those manuevers in your games? In mine, almost never. Past the first few levels, both are useless against anything except humanoid NPCs, which are not nearly as common as non-humanoid enemies.

In addition, as pointed out, its damage is really crappy. A bastard sword does more damage on average, and it can be used in one hand and it has a better threat range. A greatsword does a lot more damage, and doesn't take a feat and also has a better threat range.

I think people are over estimating the utility of reach. Yes, it's good, but you've given up so much in damage that it is easily balanced out. If you took away that ability, it would be useless and no one would ever use it. And changing anything else about it wouldn't matter, because it's not the other bonuses that people complain about, it's the reach.

-The Souljourner

 

[Taren Seeker]

I use one in LG. It's good, but not overpowered. Others (like my 1/2 orc barb cleric buddy) do a LOT more damage, and generally are more accurate since they can allocate more stat points to strength.

My PC:
6 fighter 3 rogue

Str 16
Dex 16

Feats:
EWP Chain
Focus & Spec Chain
Dodge
Mobility
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Close Quarters Fighting

Weapon: +1 Frost Chain

I do less damage than other fighters unless I can flank, then I merely keep up. I am very good at disarming but tripping is a problem (will be better in 3.5 however). I don't get a lot of AoO's cause I fight a lot of creatures with 10' reach, and in a melee there is often someone in between me and a target giving them enough cover to deny me one. Also, I've seen DM's go to rather silly lengths to avoid giving me an AoO (even when I'm flatfooted; apparently I have "COMBAT REFLEXES" tattooed on my forehead). He's fun in combat though because he does get a lot of options. I love the look on a DM's face when I disarm his BBEG while fighting on a rope bridge, or while water walking or something

This char may not be an optimal build because I created him 3.5 years ago and there are some choices that seemed good at the time but are not so attractive now. I was originally going for Whirlwind but in retrospect I think I should have dropped the spring attack chain and upped my strength rather than Dex.

That being said, this char will get a lot better in 3.5 with the +4 to trips, and changes to AoO's. Close Quarters in particular is now a money feat for me.

Still, overpowered? Nah. Take a look at the Dwarf tank who regularily does 20+ damage per hit, cleaves and now will get 2 for 1 power attack

 

[Kodam]

overpowered?

I don't think the spiked chain is overpowered.
I agree with souljourner that its an anti-humanoid-weapon. Only agains these all those extras (trip, disarm, reach) are really effektive. Most monsters lessen or even negate their usefulness simply by size and/or by not using weapons. And to tap into the full potential of the spiked chain you don't need one feat, but you need a lot of them: improved trip / improved disarm require combat expertise as a prereq. Combat expertise in turn requires an Int of 13+. If you want to have a chance of tripping and disarming you'd like to have a decent strength as well. To make use of your reach you need combat reflexes and at least 14 Dex. EVERY melee-type needs Con. So our spiked chain fighter has 4 abilities which are important to him. AND you need the exotic weapon prof to even use this weapon at all. Still, dispite all that your greatsword-wielding partner will do more damage to this dragon!

Overpowered???

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

It reminds me of the monofilament whip in SR.

The monofilament whip is balanced by being expensive, hideously difficult to acquire, and more blatantly illegal than most light machine guns. You can't use cyber, bio, or accessories to make the monowhip more effective (can't even make a weapon focus out of it), and it does static damage.

And, there's that lovely mechanic that if you miss, you have to make a difficult Whips check if you don't want to suck down the impressive damage you tried to deal to your enemies.

 

[Verdigris]

It is simply not true that the chains' damage is substantially weaker, or lower. Several 2 handed weapons do 2d4. Obviously having a lower crit range makes it potentially less powerful per blow than a bastard sword or a falchion, but critical hits happen only a few times per combat, whereas a weapon that threatens 24 squares (versus 16 or 8) will be dealing steady damage far more often than these other weapons with their mighty crits.

Pound for pound, with or without Combat Reflexes, the Chain is at least as good but probably better than any other single weapon.

Considering that the Chain is essentially a made-up weapon, its massive power relative to historical weapons appears to be the work of a power gamer. I'm glad to see that people's players view it for what it essentially is: the ultimate munchkin toy.