<Rant> Where has courtesy gone?

[Aesmael]

I am pleased to say that I still see a fair amount of courtesy and politeness in my life, and I try to do my bit to spread this by example. Both when I was in school and now using the 'adult' public transport system it is usual to hear people thanking the bus driver at the end of their journey. Although I don't remember if I have ever had cause to give up my seat to someone else, I do make a point of letting people who I know have been waiting longer get on first and I am happy to help anyone in need of directions (unfortunately I once misdirected someone by mistake - couldn't find them again to fix it though).

At university it is usual for people to hold doors for one another, of either sex, and they are almost guarranteed a thank you for the effort and people don't seem to have any problem asking a stranger for help if they need, for example, directions or to change some money. I have experienced this on both ends several times and the exchange has always been polite even if people don't get what they were after.

I study astronomy there and the observatory is located in an out of the way part of my campus which sees little traffic. We also have a bus service to carry students distances it would be impractical to expect them to walk. Because the observatory is so out of the way the bus generally does not run past the late afternoon, yet the driver (Jim) was kind enough to give me his mobile number in case I needed him to swing by one last time. Only needed to put him out like that once, thankfully

When I am crossing the road and people stop for me I make a point of giving them a nod of acknowledgement. At least once it was returned, which made my day because now I know it is not a wasted effort. The other day I was feeling a bit down and was walking to uni pretty much withdrawn into myself (walking on automatic, y'know?) when a complete stranger on his way out bid me good afternoon. Really perked me up, that did. Of course I returned the gesture when I realised what had happened.

Of course I realise that there are jerks out there, but apparently I have been fortunate enough to have had essentially no contact with them. Even in the neighbourhood with the bad reputation people seemed more amused than moved to abuse or violence with the guy twirling his umbrella in the wind and singing songs from The Sound of Music (admittedly it was under my breath, but hey, I'd just come from seeing my girlfriend. It is allowed).

For anyone who hasn't seen it, I heartily recommend the movie Harvey. One of my very favourites.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

I think we're getting a little off-track here, and possibly hitting the political.

Off track, yeah. Political, naw. We're just discussing the legality and civility of resorting to physical violence.

I agree with a lot of his post, and I don't deny it's legality, I just believe it's wrong. That's not politics, no political entity or party has been brought into the discussion.

I'll admit we're off track slightly, but not at all political.

Say, JG, what'ya say we drop it, since we've pretty much beat it to death and aren't going to move each other opinions? Besides, I think the issue on both of our sides is way to complex to easily discuss on an internet forum.

People can disagree over laws and the actions of civility without being political.




Sheesh.

 

[jgbrowning]

Say, JG, what'ya say we drop it, since we've pretty much beat it to death and aren't going to move each other opinions? Besides, I think the issue on both of our sides is way to complex to easily discuss on an internet forum.

People can disagree over laws and the actions of civility without being political.

Sheesh.

Edit I deleted my original post because I wrote it before I read your long response. What you wrote changed my viewpoint of the situation.

To be crystal, I think it'll be funny (but not hah-hah funny) when you meet someone who feels exactly the way you do about have having a moral right to do violence as they choose to you for what reason they choose.

Yes, we'll never agree. And you'll probably still think you actions are justified even when you're on the unjust receiving end and it's the other guy who's wrong. And you'll think this because he just can't see when it's right and when it's wrong to use violence to solve a non-violent problem. In other words, his ideas of when it's the morally right time to use (violence and how much violence to use) against someone who's rude don't match up with yours.

And, again, this ain't the place to talk about this, because I don't believe that hitting people you disagree with is civil, has ever been civil, nor ever will be civil. Even when they're rude, obnoxious people.

And ENworld is civil.

So I'm outta this conversation. Goodbye and welcome to being first and only on my ignore list.

joe b.

 

[jgbrowning]

Yeah, you weren't rude. You just rolled up and screamed at them.

Seriously, you could have ignored that, and to tell the truth, what I was talking about is a LOT worse.

You WERE rude. What they did, while selfish and rude, was not like pulling up and screaming at them like a deranged lunatic.

You WERE rude, but you can't see it.

To clairify my behavior:

I didn't scream nor curse nor do anything deranged. I yelled because it's hard to hear someone from inside of a car talking to someone outside of a car about 15 feet away. No screaming, no drama. I only used the amount of volume needed to be heard. I would have got out of the car, but I think I'd scare them. I'm not a friendly looking guy when annoyed.

I think I was only rude if pointing out that someone else is rude, is rude.

joe b.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

To be crystal, I think it'll be funny (but not hah-hah funny) when you meet someone who feels exactly the way you do about have having a moral right to do violence as they choose to you for what reason they choose.

I have. Quite a few times.

So I'm outta this conversation. Goodbye and welcome to being first and only on my ignore list.

joe b.

OK. I was trying to dial it down and be civil. Frankly, I'm surprised you'd put me on ignore over a minor disagreement in moral stances, personal beliefs, and a discussion.

I didn't scream nor curse nor do anything deranged. I yelled because it's hard to hear someone from inside of a car talking to someone outside of a car about 15 feet away. No screaming, no drama. I only used the amount of volume needed to be heard. I would have got out of the car, but I think I'd scare them. I'm not a friendly looking guy when annoyed.

Thank you for the clarification. Then I was mistaken that you were rude.


I edited out a lot of what I was going to write when I realized it would have been childish of me.

JG, if I'm on your ignore list for professing my personal beliefs, and telling you that my opinion differs from yours, and then attempting to civilly and politely pour oil on troubled waters, after your claim that ENWorld is a civil place, you've pretty much given lie to ENWorld being a civil place, and thrown my attempt at a polite resolution back in my face.

Thank you for the ignore, in that case, I won't have to worry about you blathering about a post I made. You've done me more of a service then you, if you're unable to carry on a discussion involving different viewpoints.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

One of the first things I noticed when I moved up to PA from Virginia in the 8th grade (I'd lived in VA the previous 9 years) was that people were indeed less courteous and some would actually make fun of you for being courteous!

So I'll once more state the fact that in the South there is still some 'Southern Hospitality' left.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

One of the first things I noticed when I moved up to PA from Virginia in the 8th grade (I'd lived in VA the previous 9 years) was that people were indeed less courteous and some would actually make fun of you for being courteous!

I've noticed that in television and movies.

That it's cool to be rude and arrogant, while it's geeky to be polite and civil.

Part of the problem or a relfection?

 

[nonamazing]

Human beings are weird animals, man.

See, the thing is, human beings literally need one another to survive--we can't make it on our own. Weeell, okay, I'll grant you that a well-prepared and well-trained human might be able to live "off the land", generating all the resources he needs to survive without help from anyone else. But not only is that a very rare scenario, where did he get that training and preperation from in the first place? Other human beings, I'd wager.

We need each other in order to survive--it's that simple. I didn't make the food I'm eating, and I didn't generate the electricity that powers the computer that lets me communicate with you. I'm part of a web of interdependance that connects me, however periphally, to hundreds of thousand of other human beings.

In an interdependant society, politeness (true politeness, that is: intention, and not just words) is very important; it's an echo of the connection that we share that is vital to our survival. It is a way of acknowledging that you and I work together, that I respect you because you are important to my life, even if only in a very, very minor way. In an interdependant society, we all more or less agree to grant one another the same level of respect, and as long as we do, things work quite well.

But as you've all noted, things don't always go as smoothly as my theory would suggest. Why? Because although we need other human beings in order to survive, mutual interdependance is not the only way to ensure that survival. Another way is to prey on other humans, acting as predator or parasite. Usually this involves taking what you want by force (ie, robbery) but it can also take a variety of different forms. For an example, after many recent major disasters (September 11 in particular) some predators would head to supermarkets, malls, and other areas where large crowds could be found and begin collecting money 'to aid in disaster relief'--but in actuality keeping all such funds gained.

One thing that I feel has helped contribute to the decline in politeness is the huge growth in predators and parasites within our society. Not only have many of these people corrupted and twisted tradtional forms of politness in order to suit their needs (telemarketers, in my opinion, have done much of this because of their incessant use of polite words without any true intention of politeness or respect), but because as people feel preyed upon, they become more defensive, more removed from their web of interdependance and thus less likely to feel the need to be polite or respectful to others. This can become evident in large cities, where predators are numerous and self-isolation is surprisingly easy, even surrounded by thouands of people. (It might even be theorized that people who become severely self-isolated might in turn become more inclined toward predatory or parasitical behavior.)

So to summarize, politeness is important when human beings are living together in an agreeable state of interdependance. But when even a few humans take it upon themselves to take advantage of this system, their actions diminish us all.

 

[BlackSilver]

A rude couple of days

The level of rudeness in society sometimes is just so overwhelming I can’t think straight. A few things happened that I want to share, cause there is no one home but me and I want to rant a bit.

Day before yesterday- a fellow on a bicycle waiting on the curb for the walk light to change goes when it turns red for him to go across and us (in cars) to go. He walks his bike across the street slow enough that no one can make it through the light. It was surely a gesture for attention in my eyes, but it was very rude.


Two things happened today- one while I was at the store the other one the way home, first the store incident. I have a cart full of stuff, and I am waiting on the elderly woman just ahead of me to write her check. Behind me is a guy with a six-pack of sodas. “You want to go ahead of me?” To which he replies- “rather be behind you,” with his leer I have an idea what he means, but I let him go ahead in any case. He strikes up a conversation, that I do not respond to, he takes the hint and shuts up, but eventually says- “now if this old, (something), would get out of the (something) way I could get out of here.”

No thank you, first off, then makes the comment, and lastly the one that really pushed my buttons. The cashier caught all of it, and said not a thing to him that she didn’t have to say. His transaction done he took flight out of the store. In the parking lot, I helped the elderly woman with a couple of her heavier bags, and she thanked me. “Children these days,” she said, to which I replied “its not the generation, it’s the individual. Don’t blame us all for his actions.” She blessed me and thanked me again.

On my way home was my last incident. One of the roads I have to travel is a four lane. At the intersection there is an additional right hand turn lane and a left hand turn lane. I have to turn right so I am in the right hand turn lane, but there are ten cars ahead of me, making the turn slowly. A car with two guys in it pulls up to the light in the right most none turn lane.

The driver decides that he should pull in front of me (the last car in the turn lane) so that he too can make a right hand turn. I hit my breaks to avoid taking off his right rear bumper, throw half my groceries from the passenger’s seat onto the floor where the other half are located (half the eggs are destroyed, bread and noodles smashed, etc.). To add insult to injury the passenger flips me off and yells what I think is- “wait your (something) turn, (something).”

I take a breath and make the turn.

Over the years I have tried to avoid bad karma, but we can’t help acquiring a bit, so perhaps this is just that bad karma coming back around, or maybe its just a day that I am being tested. So I am taking a breath, posting this, shutting down my computer and going to meditate for an hour to calm myself. Thank you for reading this.

 

[MaxKaladin]

I've noticed that in television and movies.

That it's cool to be rude and arrogant, while it's geeky to be polite and civil.

Part of the problem or a relfection?

It's some of both, I think.

Another example: Ever notice how in recent decades calling someone a "boy scout" has become a derisive term? They strive to be nice, polite and courteous and stress doing the right thing. {Sarcasm}How horrible!{/Sarcasm} (And let's not talk about the politics of the organization, please -- that's not what people are referring to in this context)