Rationalizing Savage Species

[Lygah]

Now I don't have the book yet (tomorrow it shall be mine), but in our group we have multiple DMS, three of us , including myself do the bulk of the DMing. Me and one of the other regular DMs love the idea of advancing monsters at ECL 0, the third can't seem to see a way that a minotaur can be an ECL 0, if its medium sized and weak enough to be played at level 1. it just isn't a minotaur to him, how have you rationaized the growth of power over levels for them.

P.S. Adolescent to Adult doesn't work, he's not a fan of the idea of " I'm growing up because I'm killing stuff, if I go home, I stop aging" and he does have a point.

Thanks in advance,
Lygah

 

[Ashwyn]

Maybe comparing the power of the Minotaur "Class" to the core classes would help. Until I am actually able to read Savage Species for myself, I really don't know how to help you.

 

[Aitch Eye]

Would all the minotaur levels have to be taken in a row before advancing in a regular class? If not, then the minotaur could take levels of something else until enough time had passed (if it would in this campaign) for it to go up.

Also, looking at the minotaur progression, I think that there's some wiggle room in the earlier levels to argue that -- rather than getting bigger -- the improvement is the result of real-world experience making them more cunning, skilled, and conditioned.

 

[Krug]

Pretty thorough review here...
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/revi...tive&reviewer=Michael+Burnaugh&product=sspmh6

 

[s/LaSH]

You could always pretend the 'taur had confidence issues and adopted a slouched posture until he'd beaten enough things up, and put the AC bonus for being Medium-sized down to having learned to avoid blows rained on him by his superiors in the Cruel Minotaur Society (tm). Then when he finally stands up he, um, no longer thinks he needs to dodge or something.

It's pseudorational. Think it'd hold up in court?

 

[BMF]

Adolescent to Adult doesn't work, he's not a fan of the idea of " I'm growing up because I'm killing stuff, if I go home, I stop aging" and he does have a point.

I'd remind that DM that page 145 of the PHB says that it is "training and practice" that causes characters to go up in levels, not killing things. In fact it says if they don't train enough, they might lose xp.

So he doesn't have a point.

 

[Lygah]

re: the minotaur

I was just using the minotaur as an example, until tomorrow it is all we have to go by, another player wishes to be one, but its the idea of grow in racial, not class based abilities, over levels that is bothering him. I do like Aitch Eye and s/LaSh's ideas though, maybe I'll give 'em a shot.

(bonus edited material after here)

Well BMF, again it comes down to the idea of aging through action, the way the rules ( size is the change causing the biggest problem) the lazy minotaur who avoids conflict (and therefor XP) will remain barely more than a human, while the one who goes out and slaughter goblins comes home 11 feet tall and immune to maze spells.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Personally, I trimmed Lizard Folk and Sahuagin to be ECL1 each. However, I have "age templates" that I add on when they reach a certain age, layering on the ECL over time. Lizard Folk only have 3 such templates (and we're considering 2 more, but that's it!), although I'm working in all of the growth phases for Sahuagin from the 2E Sea Devils book.

I'm kinda interested in seeing MC's "Race Levels" for Arcana Unearthed.

 

[Tewligan]

Don't try to rationalize it, you'll only hurt yourself. I fully intend to just wave away any questions about, for example, a Medium minotaur suddenly unfolding into a Large minotaur once he gets enough XP. Add it to the "Suspension of Disbelief" files.

"Hey, just because I got more XP, why is my minotaur bigger?"
"Feh."
"No, really, it doesn't make any..."
"Feh!"
"But shouldn't it take into account..."
"FEH!"
"Sigh...okay, forget it. The newly Large Goros Bloodmane is ready to go into the dungeon."
"Good! When we last left our heroes..."

 

[I'm A Banana]

Think of it as sort of a self-mastery.

He begins an unmolded creature, merely born with certain powers, but not having honed them at all.

And now, through the pressures of adventure, he is gaining the experience to hone his body into a weapon itself.

Most of his people have already gone through such a transition -- the lives of the monster are not kind ones. A monster's body is capable of adaptation, mutation, over the course of days, or months, as stresses are applied and training is enforced. Whereas a skilled, sapient creature like an Elf may diversify in skills and talents (taking levels of a normal class), a monstrous creature evolves and mutates, becoming more and more the true ideal of their type, honing their body to naturally evolve through their stages.

It's a benefit of monstrous creatures in the fantasy world -- mutation comes swiftly for them, over the course of their lives. Only once they have advanced as far as their own bodies can take them, do they start diversifying in skills.

Something like a halfling is pretty much born as far as their body can take them. But a minotaur (for instance) can go through their entire lives never realizing their true might that lies simply beneath the skin, needing only the propper stress and pain to manifest.