ray of enfeeblement

[Al'Kelhar]

One of the things our group kept in the 3.5 version of ray of enfeeblement was a Fortitude save against the spell, although made it Fort half rather the Fort negates. The reason for retaining the saving throw is that, in our group's experience, this spell is on par with mage armour and magic missile as 1st level "must haves". There is nothing which reduces the effectiveness of a high-Strength melee combatant using a two-handed weapon and Power Attack so effectively for so little cost as a ray of enfeeblement. Compare it to enervation (a 4th level spell) for its reduction in attack and damage modifiers, for example. And it's not like it's hard to hit a giant with a ranged touch attack.

Take this spell. It's a 1st level spell which will always see use, no matter what your character level.

As an aside, given that undead are generally immune to effects which require a Fort save, this would render them immune to our house-ruled rays of enfeeblement.

Cheers Al'Kelhar

 

[Count Arioch the 28t]

And what exactly is wrong with low level spells that see use in higher level play? 'Cause I don't see the harm at all.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The 3.5 PHB, p. 174 says:

A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action.

Yes, that's what it says. But that's not the whole story.

When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration from one round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell.

You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least one full round. While casting a spell, you don’t threaten any squares around you.

Evven though your turn (and your full round action) are over, the casting is not. It's not even that you've finished casting at the end of your full round action, but the spell hasn't come into effect; you continue casting for at least one full round.

The sorcerer casting his Empowered Magic Missile takes a full round action, and then he is finished casting. the spell comes into effect immediately. He threatens squares around him.

The wizard casting Enlarge Person takes a full round action. Then it's the end of his turn, and his full round action is over, but he is still casting. The casting time of the spell did not terminate at the end of the full round action. It extends beyond that.

The casting time is more than one full round action, even though the full round action is the action that the character must take to cast the spell.

-Hyp.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

That's not to say that it takes more than the full-round action however. It doesn't take any actions during the next turn for instance. And since actions are what Quicken Spell appears to work on, (full round action), it seems to me that Quicken Spell would still work. It's still FAQ vs. PHB here.

There's a reason why the sorceror meta-magicked spells are often confused with 1-round spells: because they take the same action to cast. Sorceror metamagicked spells are explicitly excluded from Quicken Spell. Not others.

(And it still doesn't explain why on earth it's "more than a full round action" if you're right. There are no full round action spells other than 1-round casting time spells and the specifically excluded spontaneously metamagicked spells.)

Yes, that's what it says. But that's not the whole story.

When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration from one round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell.

You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least one full round. While casting a spell, you don’t threaten any squares around you.

Evven though your turn (and your full round action) are over, the casting is not. It's not even that you've finished casting at the end of your full round action, but the spell hasn't come into effect; you continue casting for at least one full round.

The sorcerer casting his Empowered Magic Missile takes a full round action, and then he is finished casting. the spell comes into effect immediately. He threatens squares around him.

The wizard casting Enlarge Person takes a full round action. Then it's the end of his turn, and his full round action is over, but he is still casting. The casting time of the spell did not terminate at the end of the full round action. It extends beyond that.

The casting time is more than one full round action, even though the full round action is the action that the character must take to cast the spell.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's not to say that it takes more than the full-round action however. It doesn't take any actions during the next turn for instance.

It doesn't take more actions. But it does take longer.

The casting time is more than the action.

(And it still doesn't explain why on earth it's "more than a full round action" if you're right. There are no full round action spells other than 1-round casting time spells and the specifically excluded spontaneously metamagicked spells.)

Is the casting time of Magic Missile more than one full round action? No. It can be Quickened.

Is the casting time of spontaneously-Empowered Magic Missile more than one full round action? No. But it's a spontaneously-metamagicked spell, so it can't be Quickened.

Is that casting time of Enlarge Person more than one full round action? Yes. Its casting time is one round. It can't be Quickened.

Just because there don't happen to be any spells that can be Quickened with casting times longer than a standard action doesn't make the definition wrong. Saying "Spells with a casting time of more than a standard action can't be Quickened" might have the same in-game effect, but either is a perfectly legal rule.

-Hyp.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

As Hyp said, but keep in mind, that the following also applies:
If you cast a spell with a casting time of 1 round, you probably have to make concentration checks in the round following the round that you started casting the spell if the effect or attack occurs prior to your initiative.
That's something that further divides 1 full-round action and 1 round casting time spells from each other.