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Re-examining the 5' step

tomBitonti

Adventurer
While thinking about what I don't like about 4E, I realized that a part of what I don't like are elements of 3.0E/3.5E that were preserved in 4E, and that I really didn't like them in 3.oE / 3.5E in the first place.

I was considering cyclic initiative, aoo's, and the 5' step. I grant that these mechanics do streamline combat. But, as I was thinking, they do so by limiting options and by distorting the narrative view of what is happening.

A 5' step allows movement while performing other actions. I have mostly considered this to be a gradual movement that occurs simultaneous with the action.

With that definition, consider what happens if I cast a spell while fighting. I step back (with a 5' step) and cast the spell safely. My spell is not an instant, so the movement was necessary to avoid an attack of opportunity.

I can see the movement as being reasonable, but not that the opponent would not press the attack and deprive me of the safe moment to cast the spell.

After further conderation, that led me to the following idea: When taking a 5' step, one is condered to occupy both squares. However, you gain a +4 AC bonus to AOO's against you for any actions taken in the same turn as the 5' step.

That satisfies my sense of making the mechanic make sense. That also opens several options:

*) Taking a quick step back (via an initiative check), allowing the movement and action before the opponent can react.

*) Feinting the opponent (via a bluff check), fooling the opponent into thinking that you are moving to a different location.

*) Threatening the opponent (via an intimidate check), getting them on guard while you step back.

That also brings up an option:

*) Opponents who threaten you may, in their initiative order, choose to follow you by making a 5' step. On their next turn, they are required to move at least that much to start their action.
 

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Cadfan

First Post
I've considered allowing someone who hasn't moved on their turn to shift a space in reaction to their opponent shifting. But that affects an awful lot of abilities, so I'm not sure if its a good idea, and I prefer a "less is more" approach to house rules.
 

malraux

First Post
I don't visualize it so much as you stepping away, you casting a spell, then your opponent moving forward so much as I see it as you give up ground carefully and temporarily gain breathing space to cast. If you are willing to give up the ground, you can reasonably safely defend yourself against a more competent fighter.
 

mmadsen

First Post
I can see the movement as being reasonable, but not that the opponent would not press the attack and deprive me of the safe moment to cast the spell.
The simple rule change I recommend is this: remove the 5' step's immunity from Attacks of Opportunity. If you're engaged in melee combat, you're not getting out of it without giving up a free attack.
 

IceFractal

First Post
The 5' step is one of the least strange things about the way initiative works. Which is more odd?

1) A wizard is standing next to an orc. He steps back to cast a spell. The orc doesn't immediately step forward to prevent it.

2) An orc is charging at a wizard who is standing on the other side of a doorway, 60 feet away, with a lever to drop a portcullis right next to him. The wizard doesn't step to the side or pull the lever.

Honestly, if retreating back to gain breathing room is an unacceptable amount of abstraction, you'd be better off rewriting the combat system entirely.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
I would agree with Ice fractal up to a point. You could try written orders. Each player secretly writes his/her orders for the turn and then resolve in initiative order.

It will slow up combat and be more work for the DM, and you would need a rule for accidental contact.

Hmm, There are figure historical wargames that allow simultaneous movement and I can't remember what rule systems do that. They might give you some ideas.
 

Delta

First Post
What I do with the 5-ft step (in my Diminutive d20 rules) is simply not allow anyone to step out of a threatened space (or specifically, step away from adjacency to an opponent). I say you've got to use a Withdraw action for that.
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I've never minded the idea of the 5' step when it's to let someone else in to fight alongside you, or get your back to a wall, or some other logical tactic one might do in a fight. But the idea of a 5' step giving you safety to cast a spell is silly; your opponent could simply follow you.

Harsh interpretation of the turn-based initiative system leads to many wacko things. For example (and this came up once in a game I was in) a battle breaks out 50' away. Two of us want to charge in *together* so we could keep track of each other's whereabouts in the fog...the higher-init. guy (me) even holds up to wait for the slower guy's initiative to arrive...but we still aren't allowed to move together, as by the book all of one character's actions (including movement) must resolve before another's can start. End result: I charged in, and the other guy got lost in the fog. Bloody ridiculous.

Another one, hypothetical this time: a Giant stands across a field. How can the party charge it en masse? Under the turn-based initiative system, they move one at a time...so when the Giant's initiative comes up only some of the party are there to be hit *despite* the stated intention to all arrive at once.

The game has to make some allowance for simultaneous actions, and for fluidity in combat.

The other thing that bugs me is - and I like your term for it - cyclic initiative, where everyone always acts in the same sequence (intentional changes such as holds notwithstanding). I far prefer - and will always use - re-rolled initiaitve each round, though be advised it slows things down a bit.

Lanefan
 

The game has to make some allowance for simultaneous actions, and for fluidity in combat.

The other thing that bugs me is - and I like your term for it - cyclic initiative, where everyone always acts in the same sequence (intentional changes such as holds notwithstanding). I far prefer - and will always use - re-rolled initiaitve each round, though be advised it slows things down a bit.

Lanefan

I have come to the same conclusion. Initiative rolled each round adds that level of uncertainty that makes battles feel more chaotic and exciting.

Going in turns is faster, but if the combat system itself isn't too complex then rolled initiative won't slow down things much at all.
 

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