Reactions to Primal Magic in Dark Sun

[darkbard]

Famously, arcane magic is reviled on the Burnt Planet of Athas. In fact, the 4e DSCS has this to say about it: "Because of [the] harm done to the world, those who use arcane magic are hated and persecuted across Athas. They must practice their arts in secret or seek the patronage of a sorcerer-king and gain the ruler’s sanction for their spellcasting." Common folk who witness arcane magic are likely to run in fear or turn the caster in to the nearest Templar authorities.

But how are Primal magic users treated? What if a Druid or Shaman, etc. were to use Primal magic in an arena combat or other public venue? The DSCS has only this to say: "Primal magic is more widespread than arcane magic, although it is rarely practiced in the cities. Out in the barrens, wielders of primal magic serve as healers and defenders of their villages or tribes. Shamans, druids, wardens, and other primal wielders are regarded with deep suspicion by the templars, who dislike the notion of magic that lies outside the control of their tyrannical overlords."

What would be the reaction to this form of magic? How would a Druid or Shaman be treated by commoners? By Templars or other authorities?

 

[Blue]

If you go back to the original source material, there was no primal magic. Arcane (which you cover above) and divine, which didn't (really) exist as an option for the players. Druids and such fell under divine back then, they did not exist at all. In exchange, psionics were added.

Primal was a new power source introduced in 4e, and one that the paragraph above is trying to back-fit into an existing mold that did not have a space for it. So let's try to think of how people would react.

Can city-folk tell the difference between primal magic and arcane magic, or is it all magic feared? It's pretty sure that the Sorcerer-Kings would want to control all magical power so they would encourage fear of all magic and turning people in so that they could recruit or kill those with primal power. So I say in the cities they would respond negatively to all magic, and may not even know that is a non-defiling type of magic as generations of fear have caused primal magic to be rare in the cities.

The flip side is outside the cities. Magic that can heal and do other things without killing the land would be prized. Perhaps jealously so but that needn't be the rule. Though still any outsider who can do magic would be suspected as a potential despoiler until that is proven, perhaps again and again. But once proven, they could be seen as a great aid to the strength of the tribe.

Looking at how that meshes with the statement about 4e primal magic it seems pretty close, so it's likely it's a similar vein of thought. SKs and their Templars would try to enslave any magic, but it can be trusted outside their influence if proven not to be despoiling magic.

EDIT: There is a "older D&D edition" forum here that has a lot of active 4e players on it - this may get more discussion there.

 

[darkbard]

So I say in the cities they would respond negatively to all magic, and may not even know that is a non-defiling type of magic as generations of fear have caused primal magic to be rare in the cities.

This certainly makes sense from a fictional, game-world perspective, but I wonder about actual implementation in play. This is to say, PCs presumably spend some (if not much) of their time in the cities. Does every non-psionic "magic-using" PC have to be on constant guard to never use her powers where she might be seen? (Or else, kill all witnesses?) What if the PCs are enlisted in some fashion to fight in an arena combat?

I'm not arguing this to be contentious but from a desire to make fictional and gameplay elements meet in a workable fashion.

There is a "older D&D edition" forum here that has a lot of active 4e players on it - this may get more discussion there.

Oh, I know, but I deliberately want this discussion to not have to rely upon the edition mechanics so much as the logic of the mechanics/fiction interface.

Thanks for the feedback! I hope others will join the conversation...

 

[Blue]

This certainly makes sense from a fictional, game-world perspective, but I wonder about actual implementation in play. This is to say, PCs presumably spend some (if not much) of their time in the cities. Does every non-psionic "magic-using" PC have to be on constant guard to never use her powers where she might be seen? (Or else, kill all witnesses?) What if the PCs are enlisted in some fashion to fight in an arena combat?

I'll go as far to say that if it didn't impact play, you're leaving tricks in the bag for really bringing home the setting to players. Dark Sun has always been a gritty, dark, antagonistic world. Arcane casters have always lived on this edge as PCs, and any party doing something the SK might not approve needs to worry about the Templars.

So in my opinion, heck yes! This is one of your tools to show that Dark Sun is not Faerun or Greyhawk. Play it up.

 

[Eltab]

In Athas (as I would run it)...

If the local villagers know / respect / trust the Primal-wielder, they are good with his abilities. (The village 'medicine man' is not going to face a lynch mob daily.)

If the local villagers just met you, they will be hostile and suspicious, because they likely think their medicine man is unique and special, not using a commonly-known source of power. (The PCs are definitely strangers and not to be easily trusted.)
MAYBE the villagers will let you prove yourself safe to be around - somewhere far from their farms and village, of course.
And the villagers aren't ignorant uneducated boors, either - they have the evidence of their eyes all around what happens when magic of the highest power is used.

 

[Prickly]

The original dark sun did indeed have druids, rangers, elemental clerics and templars as divine classes.

the druids were described as living in the wilderness protecting oases and the like.

The cultural impact of elemental clerics was not really handled much.

 

[darkbard]

I'll go as far to say that if it didn't impact play, you're leaving tricks in the bag for really bringing home the setting to players. Dark Sun has always been a gritty, dark, antagonistic world. Arcane casters have always lived on this edge as PCs, and any party doing something the SK might not approve needs to worry about the Templars.

So in my opinion, heck yes! This is one of your tools to show that Dark Sun is not Faerun or Greyhawk. Play it up.

I would have responded sooner, but I was (blissfully!) away from internet technology all day yesterday!

I think you make a most excellent point. What I had been viewing as a limitation on player actions, can actually provide fictional depth to help make Athas' unique qualities more apparent and open up complex choices for such PCs: do you use such a power in the view of witnesses if such an action is likely to trigger a backlash or bring down unwanted scrutiny from authorities, etc?

 

[Randomthoughts]

What would be the reaction to this form of magic? How would a Druid or Shaman be treated by commoners? By Templars or other authorities?

I ran a 4e Dark Sun campaign many years ago, and found primal magic to be a wonderful addition. Here's what I recall on how I wrestled with the questions you have now:

-- Martial and Psionics were the most common, and therefore the "default" power source.

-- Arcane was the most reviled. I treated it very much like the Dark Side of the Force, and gave extra incentives to encourage its use, but really played up negative reactions.

-- I treated Primal like described in the DSCS with some twists to differentiate from the other power sources. You don't find it often in cities bc those are the bastions of SKs whose defiling practically "killed" or perverted the spirit world there.

In other words, I treated primal magic almost like chaos magic in that spirits may act in crazy and unexpected ways except when in the wild (where their presence is strongest but of course one may not survive out in the wilds of Dark Sun).

Primal users had a natural enmity against arcane users for obvious reasons. One PC was a wilden Druid who eventually became a defiler hunter of sorts.

In terms of social interactions, primal users were typically welcome in the wild, as described in the DSCS.

In cities, commoners' reactions ranged from ignorance (what did you just do), avoidance (I don't want to be seen with you) but typically wariness. Again, primal might not be common in cities but it's far from the loathing associated with the arcane.

Templars would typically see them as troublemakers who need to be watched. Of course, they would report them to their superiors bc they don't see primal users that often in the city. They are here for a reason....



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[darkbard]

Thanks for the response!

In cities, commoners' reactions ranged from ignorance (what did you just do), avoidance (I don't want to be seen with you) but typically wariness. Again, primal might not be common in cities but it's far from the loathing associated with the arcane.

Templars would typically see them as troublemakers who need to be watched. Of course, they would report them to their superiors bc they don't see primal users that often in the city. They are here for a reason....

So, with the above in mind, how would you adjudicate the following scenario? The campaign kicks off with the PCs (a Druid, Rogue, and Fighter) attending a public ceremony in the arena-cum-marketplace when an assassination attempt breaks out: several ranged attackers plus a demon-summoning defiler make an attempt on a public figure's life, quite possibly successfully. Presumably, the PCs will want to intervene, and the Druid will likey resort to using Magic Stones as a method of minion-popping (she is built as a hybrid Warlord, so actually at L1, this is her only primal power).

In the aftermath, the Templars are sure to appear in force, seeking answers as to what transpired and looking to crack down on users of prohibited magics.

Will the crowd be likely to turn on the Druid PC? Will the Templars, hearing of strange powers exhibited by the PCs, arrest them? Only the Druid? Try to subvert the PCs as controllable assets?

Obviously, how this might play out will be determined by actions declared and dice results at the table, but I'm interested in how you might frame the fallout of the scene for the PCs in order for those actions to be declared and dice rolled!

 

[Randomthoughts]

In the aftermath, the Templars are sure to appear in force, seeking answers as to what transpired and looking to crack down on users of prohibited magics.

Will the crowd be likely to turn on the Druid PC? Will the Templars, hearing of strange powers exhibited by the PCs, arrest them? Only the Druid? Try to subvert the PCs as controllable assets!

A few things to consider:
Who do the templars serve? My campaign was set before Kalak was killed. The PCs were part of the conspiracy to kill him (and unfortunately the campaign ended before then). I'm going to assume that they serve some SK.

Can people discern between a display of primal power versus an arcane one? My campaign would be that commoners might not but skilled individuals like templars and (of course) magic practitioners would.

One MAJOR difference though is that the defiling effects of the arcane are felt (unless they are trying to preserve) while primal would not. Commoners could see this display of power as potentially psionic. It depends on the "fiction" of the power itself.

For example, I believe one warden power causes roots to grow and entangle enemies. This probably is not something people would think is a psionic power.

Anyway, to answer your question, the crowd would not necessarily turn on the Druid. Again, they would not experience defilement. They may confuse Magic Stones to be arcane, but it depends (I forget the fiction f that power). I did tend to make more powerful powers (like Dailies) to cause more confusion.

Templars will naturally be wary of any "hero" not working for them, displaying any power source. They would be skilled in detecting an arcane spell or primal power (generally speaking). I wouldn't outright prohibit the use of primal powers (unlike arcane) but SKs would never allow powerful individuals (much less "heroes") to run free.

I agree, they would be pawns or be brought to heel.

Something to consider too is that I actually gave bonuses for arcane use when a primal user is present bc they offer more "life energy" (and primal users received a bit more damage). IOW, a SK may consider a group of them as living "batteries", or force them to attract and *enslave* spirits for them. This caused even great enmity between the two types of users.

EDIT: Forgot: you mentioned a wizard summoning a demon. THAT would cause the mob to turn on the wizard. Most likely commoners would run and let the templars handle him, but they would focus on helping to rid the evil arcane user before anyone else.
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