Reading a scroll while invisible?

[miles2912]

What is the general concensus. Can you read a scroll while invisible? The players argued that performing actions (like swinging a sword for example) would be difficult while invisible because you could not see your weapon (think about a thieves extra damage). The rules say that items picked up and tucked away away in a cloak or robe become invisible. The scroll was retrieved from a hewards handy haversack. My years of experience say that everything on you is invisble - even to you. This goes for items stored in an extra dimensional space or just a normal bag. This would make reading scroll impossible (can you tell I am the DM?). Any input appreciated.


Miles
-DM

 

[Li Shenron]

Good question.

Invisibility/Improved Invisibility is an Illusion (Glamer) with WILL saving throw to negate. From SRD "Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear."

We usually consider that the subject of this spell automatically wins the ST and thus can see himself, tho the point is, "what do you exactly see of an invisible creature when you succeed the ST"? If it's an invisible scroll, can you read it?

In our game it's fine to be able to see details of an invisible things if you overcome the ST (or if it's you or your gear), and also you are still able to know it's invisible for others, we say you see some translucency or semi-transparency.

This is our decision, but it may not be what is meant by the books.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

The saving throw for invisibility is "None or Will negates (harmless, object)." The "Will negates" means that the recipient of the spell may resist the effect with a Will save. If he does, he is not invisible at all. If he accepts the spell, there is no saving throw for others to see him. That is what the "None" means. Same with SR.

 

[AuraSeer]

I have always ruled that an invisible character can see himself and his equipment, just to avoid a lot of complications. If a fighter couldn't see his own weapon, I'd have to assign a penalty to hit, if not a flat % miss chance. A wizard would have trouble casting spells if he couldn't see his material components. It's unnecessarily complicated, and I don't want to deal with it.

(And FTR, Dr. Zoom is right. The save for Invisibility is for an unwilling recipient. Viewers do not get a save to see through the spell.)

 

[Xarlen]

Not to mention an archer would have penalties to shoot, since he can't see his weapon to aim.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

FWIW, the spell Invisibility Sphere says that you cannot see the others in the sphere, but you can see yourself. Perhaps this may be used as a precedent for the other spells?

I have not really thought too much about it. I have always assumed that the recipient could not see himself and left it at that without further complications or penalties to attack. Of course, this means the scroll could not be read. He could drop it as a free action, pick it up as a MEA and cast the spell from it, since dropped items become visible. Gotta give this some more thought.

 

[BMF]

Yall are a bunch of saps!

I always play it as the invisible character can't see himself any better than anyone else. If he wants to see himself, he needs to cast see invisibility.

So, if you want to read scrolls while you are invisible, you better cast see invisibility first.

As for the bit about seeing your weapon to use it, I think any fighter who is proficient with the weapon can tell by the balance, and weight where it is. I don't think a swordsman in a fight is paying a lot of attention to where his sword is, he is paying attention to where his enemy is. He can feel where his sword is. He knows wher it is as well as he knows where his hand and arm is.

Stand up, close your eyes and touch your right hand to your left shoulder.

Did you do it??

Did you need to see your hand or your shoulder to do it??

No.

Because you can FEEL where your body is. And because you have that action burned into your memory after thousands of times of doing it over the past years of your life.

Someone skilled with a weapon can FEEL where it is in the same way and is not concerned with WATCHING it. They know where their weapon reaches and how it is swung without seeing it.

But, like I said,, reading scrolls is a different matter.

 

[Nail]

I'm sure yer all assuming this anyway, but just so it's out there:

Core rules say you must be able to see the scroll in order to read and activate it. It's implied you can't "just remember" what's on the scroll -- you have to be looking at it as you recite it.

Re: invisibility
Hey, it's a cool affect -- but there are disadvantages. "You can't see yerself" is one of 'em. Deal with it.

(Dr. Zoom's solution is contrived, but clever.)

 

[Shin Okada]

I have been thinking that Invisibility make the caster and his equipment invisible to himself. So he cannot read scrolls while he is invisible.

As for "cannot see weapon" topic. Well, this game system has no rule for "cannot see one's weapon" or "cannot see surroundings" rule anyway. For example, even in complete darkness, only penalty a fighter will get is miss chance from "opponent is invisible". Whether he can see his own axe or not is not a issue in 3e's combat rule. So this argument will do nothing to the original topic.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Stand up, close your eyes and touch your right hand to your left shoulder.

Did you do it??

Did you need to see your hand or your shoulder to do it??

No.

now... grab a broom, close your eyes, extend both arms out at 45 degree angles to your body, and try to touch your opposite hand with the broom handle... quickly.