Reading a scroll while invisible?

[bensei]

Noone mentioned the possibility to see the outlines of an invisible creature/object by a good spot check. Depending on how exactly you interpret this to work you could certainly give good arguments why a person could certainly 'see' (in the sense of spot, which has to be defined in more detail) his weapon, e.g. by great boni on the check, or assumed that checks on items carried by the person himself are always successful.

So in that sense, given the reasoning above, you could also 'see' a scroll - at least its outlines in some sense. Is that enough to read the scroll? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

 

[Ranes]

Well, the humour may have eluded me but perhaps that's because I expect humour to be funny. Anyway, it occured to me after going to bed (when the sun was rising) that Mirzabah's point is the relevant anchor here. Invisibility is an illusion. Nothing untoward is happening to any of those beautifully irrelevant photons. Simply, the brains of those people who fail their Will save are not registering the image of the invisible creature or object.

The only trivial issue on which I'd be inclined disagree with Mirzabah is that I'd require a caster who had made himself invisible make a Will save in order to be able to perceive himself and his gear while invisible.

I enjoyed the debate though.

Ranes

 

[0-hr]

But all of this, while interesting, is completely irrelevant. The spell Invisibility is listed as Illusion (Glamer). Illusions affect perceptions, not reality. If you wanted to get all pseudo-technical, you could say that the subject is surrounded by a fog of magical energy which causes viewers to discount whatever it surrounds. Kind of like an SEP field.

Wow, don't let Sean K. hear you say that or we'll all be in big trouble!

Some Glamers, like invisibility and silence, do indeed affect reality (specifically, the part of reality that causes sensory experiences). If you go with the "it's all illusion" approach, then you run into trouble with something like the following...

Imagine a colloseum filled with 10,000 people. In the center is a 3dr level wizard who casts invsibility. Which is more likely:

1) The invisibility spell has an area of effect of "infinte", can affect thousands and thousands of people with no spell resistance and no saving throw, and yet is a level 2 spell.

or

2) The invisibily spell alters the wizard so that he no longer reflects, refracts, or absorbs light?

You might want to note that the SRD says

Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

Though (under figment), it does also say

"Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects"

And thus the confusion. Well, ok Confusion is actually an "Enchantment (Compulsion)", but you see what I mean.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Simply, the brains of those people who fail their Will save are not registering the image of the invisible creature or object.

not quite. viewers of the person going invisible do not get a Will save. as was stated earlier, the Will save is for unwilling recipients of an invisibility spell.

 

[PsykoLad]

PH pg 158 - "A character faced with incontrovertible proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw."

 

[Caliban]

Well, the humour may have eluded me but perhaps that's because I expect humour to be funny. Anyway, it occured to me after going to bed (when the sun was rising) that Mirzabah's point is the relevant anchor here. Invisibility is an illusion. Nothing untoward is happening to any of those beautifully irrelevant photons. Simply, the brains of those people who fail their Will save are not registering the image of the invisible creature or object.

I'm sorry, but this is wrong. Invisibility does not affect anyone's mind. It literally causes the target to vanish from sight, even darkvision. You are invisible even to creatures who are immune to magic or mind influencing effects (such as golems).

Invisibility is a subtype of illusion called a glamer, and a glamer causes real sensory changes in the target. In this case it causes light to bend around the target (or pass through the target without being stopped, or however you want to define it).

Technically, this would make the target blind, because light is composed of photons, and your retinas have to absorb the photons for you to see. If your retinas are invisible, the photons pass through them without being absorbed, and thus never register. Why aren't you blind when you turn invisible? It's magic. (Seriously!)

On another note, you should be deaf whenever you go incorporeal, because sound passes through you unimpeded. But your not. (Because it's Magic!)

 

[Lela]

It just occered to me that being invisible would make it impossible to sleep. It's like sleeping with your eyes open. If there is any light source, you'll still see it. Blinking would be way odd. Just some fun thoughts.

 

[sbwoodside]

Of course, since it's *magic* physics need not apply. The whole discussion is sophistry, really, because "invisible" mean other people don't see you so whether you can see yourself or not is irrelevant, so a version of the spell could exist where you can see yourself, or not, or both at once, or neither.

The real question is, if you're invisible, and you touch someone else who's invisible, can you see them?

Simon

 

[Bonedagger]

I just see invisibility as a kind of aura that surrounds the target. Anybody that see it are convinced that what is covered in the aura is not there.

As for the spell not having any saves: I see saves as an instinctive reaction. If your instinct do not notice the danger it doesn't react. Fortunately for you your instinct and intellect are not automatically fooled by each other.

On the other hand. Once your instinct gets convinced that the invisibility is an illusion it doesn't need a save first in order to disbelieve it.


(And since we have started applying real world physics to this: "Bending of lightwaves." I assume it's only the light the invisible creature is reflecting. But to where is it bend? Or does it just keep reflecting back, causing as serious upheat? Are we talking about a change in wave lenght? (That could be a solution... Complicated though) Could this bend light be focused into a laserbeam? )

 

[Caliban]

(And since we have started applying real world physics to this: "Bending of lightwaves." I assume it's only the light the invisible creature is reflecting. But to where is it bend?

The light isn't reflected. If it was reflected, you wouldn't be invisible. It's bent around you and then back to it's original heading, similar to the way water in a stream flows around a rock.