Neonchameleon
Legend
Start doing that too much and hit points just break for me. Why are you still standing and not crippled if you've just been given a solid direct hit by an orc with an axe?
Realism vs. Believability and the Design of HPs, Powers and Other Things
Bedrockgames
Legend
Different strokes.
Hit points, like armor class and attack bonus, is a thing that doesn't make sense if you look at too hard. They are just ways to get a desired result.
An orc tries to kill a hero. He swings his axe, hits, and deals 7 damage. The hero still has 10 hp and is still alive.
Desire: Make the level 3 hero not die from one success from the or's axe.
Solution: Made the orc's average damage less than the hero's HP.
Personally I don't care how people roleplay and describe their character's hp loss. I do have preferences but whatever.. I do care if the result I was expecting does not appear.
An orc tries to kill a hero. He swings his axe, hits, and deals 7 damage. The hero still has 10 hp and is still alive.
Desire: Make the level 3 hero not die from one success from the or's axe.
Solution: Made the orc's average damage less than the hero's HP.
Personally I don't care how people roleplay and describe their character's hp loss. I do have preferences but whatever.. I do care if the result I was expecting does not appear.
Neonchameleon
Legend
And a different understanding of what a healing surge is. If your hit points are full but your healing surges down you're still hurt. You're just able to cope. And as far as I'm aware there's no warlord power that grants surgeless healing (which is genuinely magical healing).
Bedrockgames
Legend
Yes, i realize this. That explanation isn't one that has ever worked for me. If it makes sense to you, that is great. People should play what they like and use the explanations that they find believable
pauljathome
First Post
Their current stated plan is to seriously scale back the power in other ways (greatly reduced or eliminated to hit bonuses, armour class bonuses, skill bonuses, etc).
If they ALSO scale back hit points then advancing levels is going to gain one very little in terms of power.
While I like some games with very flat power curves they do NOT seem at all like D&D to me. To me, at least, a big part of D&D is the very, very significant difference in power between low, middle and high level characters.
Hussar
Legend
See, but here's the thing. You have stated multiple times that it's not really a mechanical issue, but one of aesthetics. You want to be able to describe wounds a certain way, you want believable, natural healing rates, etc. Ok, fine.
But, since it's a purely flavour issue, and not a mechanical one, you can achieve this with 4e healing mechanics pretty easily.
1. Characters regain 1 healing surge per day of rest.
2. No Warlords.
There, I just recreated 2e's healing system. The only difference is that you have a second wind mechanic once per encounter. Everything else is magical healing. If the second wind bothers you that much, get rid of it. It's not like the game breaks if you do.
So, we both get what we want. You get slower healing, the ability to narrate wounds as physical damage, and I get faster healing rates and abstract hit points by not making these changes.
But, if we go back to earlier edition mechanics, I don't get what I want. You do, and that's great for you, but, I get left out in the cold.
When I brought this up before, you brushed it off by saying that you could simply use earlier edition mechanics. This says to me that you don't care in the slightest about any sort of compromise. If D&D Next isn't specifically geared for you, it's a failure as far as you're concerned.
From my point of view, my attitude is, well, don't let the door smack you on the ass on the way out. I'm more than willing to find a common ground here where we're both happy. What I'm not willing to do is take it up the hoop so that you get everything you want.
Bedrockgames
Legend
and your solution is I should accept 4e design and remove change, or reimagine the parts i dont like. How is that any different from me asking you to accept surges and warlords as optional ad ons?
This remedy seems like more work than I want on my end and it still requires an explanation of Hs that i dont accept. And if I really want it to work I will need to remove the secondwind mechanic and any trace of mundane surges. So what does this approach give me that HP doesn't besides some extra work and vestigial 4e mechanics?
Look Hussar, i am happy to talk reasonably with you about this subject....but i feel like you wont accept anything short of me embracing 4e or recanting my stated reasons for disliking stuff like healing surges. I dont like 4e. I dont want to play it. That is why i am not doing so. Right now I am happy playing 2e, savage worlds, rune quest and my own games. If WOTC can make a new version of the game that suits my taste, i will be more than haooy to buy it and play it. But i am not going to play something i dont like in the name of compromise or uniting the editions. But that shouldn't bother you at all because I am not on the 5e design team...all i am doing is stating what I would like to play and why.
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Hussar
Legend
Really? Two minor changes and that's all it takes to get what you want.
Sure, if they stick healing surges and whatnot into a module, I'll accept that.
Would you accept the other way though? Your preferences in the module with healing surges as the default? Because, I get a strong sense that you wouldn't. That if your way isn't the default, it's a non-starter.
Bedrockgames
Legend
Let me clarify this. My primary issue with 4e is one of believabiity. That is what immediately jumps out at me during play (feels overly metagamey and i run into constant believability issues). But i also dislike the feel of the mechanics themselves. And they offer a solution for a problem I never had with the game in the first place.
Personally i love trying out new systems and games (i really dont play much D&D these days) but when i do play D&D i want to to have the things I associate with D&D (just like i want coke to taste like coke even if I can enjoy beverages that spicier or sweeter): classic spell list, vancian casting, HP, levels, classes, etc. For me stuff like healing surges and 4e powers turn it into a different game. I played D&D because i enjoy its classic elements and how it feels in play. Change those elements and you basically have to sell me on a new game (and the 4e sales pitch doesn't appeal to me).
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