Realism vs. Believability and the Design of HPs, Powers and Other Things

Doug McCrae

Legend
It's not that the actual end result was unablanced in the game, it's just that the narrative used to describe it was totally unbelievable and for many people completely breaks their sense of immersion and roleplaying.
Yep, that's D&D. It's always been chock full of stuff that works as a game but doesn't make much sense. Hit points are just the tip of the iceberg. Classes, levels, AC, xp (particularly xp for gold), saving throws, extraordinary abilities (such as a troll's regeneration, dragon's flight, rogue's evasion and barbarian's DR) are non-magical, 3e/4e's staccato combat, everything of the same race has the same movement rate, dungeons, the plethora of monsters, Wild West goes medieval, and so forth. Almost nothing in the game is believable, when you think about it.
 
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dkyle

First Post
People often say that hit points aren't meant to represent real injury to the character.

They represent more than just physical injury. And they always have, from the start of the game.

But then, what are they supposed to represent? Falling back on things like endurance and morale are really poor excuses, because hit points simulate those things even more poorly than they simulate injuries.

They do? I think they represent endurance and morale much more effectively than injuries. Frankly, replace HP with a "Morale" score, and the whole game makes a lot more sense.

Besides, everyone knows full well that the reason you lose hit points is because your character was injured by some attack or hazard. He fell 40 ft. off a cliff. He got engulfed by a dragon's flaming breath. He was critically hit by a barbarian's axe.

I don't know those things full well. It could also be a narrow miss requiring major exertion or luck.

If they were equally things like endurance or morale, why do I not lose hit points whenever I find out a loved one has died, or when I see the village I've lived in all my life burnt to the ground by some villianous horde? Those things are devastating to one's morale but don't inflict hit point loss, so obviously you can't say that hit points have anything whatsoever to do with morale.

Does not follow.

Just because some forms of fatigue/morale are tracked by HP doesn't mean all of them have to be. Disease and poison can effect people in similar ways to physical injury, yet those are often tracked separately from HP.

"Attacks" do HP damage because there are game rules for attacks, and HP are the mechanical results. DnD doesn't have rules for being really sad. If a DM wanted to house rule them in, HP damage would make sense.

Except when it does. In 4E, lots of attacks deal "psychic" damage, that are basically a serious blow to morale. And I've often represented fatigue, from skill challenges as loss of healing surges, which is effectively the same as loss of HP.

As for endurance, likewise, being hit by clearly life-threatening attacks is going to do alot more than make you tired.

Indeed it would. It would cause serious wounds inflicting serious penalties to actions, and risk of death if not treated. Since simple HP loss does not mean that, then "being hit by clearly life-threatening attacks" is very rare. Most "hits" are really more about loss of intangibles, than actual injury.

The real reason hit points are so unbelievable, to be blunt, is simply a concession of game design.

Hey, no need to apologize. Knowing when to concede to better "game design" instead of pure simulation, is an important part of the art of making good games. HP are a good design.

That said, when 4e came along and introduced healing surges and non-magical characters healing people by yelling at them like a drill sergeant, that pushed the game even further into the realm of unbelievability than it had ever gone before, and that pushed it outside of alot of people's comfort zones.

While I can't deny that it did, I think it has more to do with people being familiar with HP, and not really internalizing what HP were always meant to represent, which was a whole host of intangible factors, with only a small component of actual physical damage. If HP are taken to mean what they were always supposed to mean, non-magical healing makes perfect sense.

Again, to be blunt, 4e's deisgn seems to disregard the believability of things in favor of "what works better for DnD combat as a miniatures wargame."

No need to apologize. That's why I love it. It finally embraced DnDs heritage, and delivered a good game on that premise, first and foremost. Just because the combat plays like a wargame doesn't mean it isn't an RPG.

Of course, many of us ask "how could the rogue possibly have done that?" It's not that the actual end result was unablanced in the game, it's just that the narrative used to describe it was totally unbelievable and for many people completely breaks their sense of immersion and roleplaying.

I don't think throwing a bunch of knives within a few seconds is outside the realm of possibility. Difficult, sure, but these are meant to be extraordinary people.

I, for one, think that when people design powers they should start with the idea of what the player is doing in the world, in a way you can visualize and explain it, and then make a set of rules for how to represent that in the game. I'm not trying to bash on 4e here, I'm just trying to explain why the design approach that was taken rubbed so many people the wrong way. 4e made alot of great advances in rpg rule design. Had they just taken a different approach and presentation and paid more deference to believability and immersion, I think 4e would have been far better accepted.

So, taking your example of Blinding Barrage, I'm not sure what should have been done differently. The second line is a concise flavor text explaining what the character is doing: "A rapid flurry of projectiles leaves your enemies clearing the blood from their eyes.". If that concept, of throwing projectiles in rapid succession at enemies eyes is not sufficiently realistic to you, then I'm not sure how it can be dressed up differently. I, for one, have no problem visualizing that attack.

Now, they just need to drastically scale back the rate at which they're gained. That will make them alot more believable and make the game more balanced as well.

I disagree. Embrace what HP have always meant, and make it truly clear that they don't just represent physical injury. That will make them more believable.

And I don't see how fewer HP inherently improves balance.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Whatever the reasons people have for liking or not liking the hit point loss and recovery mechanics in 4E... the real issue going forward will be this:

If rules for hit point loss/recovery you don't like are printed in the book as optional rules right next to rules for hit point loss/recovery you DO like... will their mere existence mean you refuse to try the game altogether?

I find it saddening that it seems like many threads have had that reaction from some people. That the mere existence of optional rules/modules they don't like means they will refuse to even play the game, regardless of how good the rest of the game might be.

I'm HOPING that those kinds of reactions have been more hyperbole than anything else... because it's that kind of "My way or the highway" attitude that seems to be the exact opposite of the inclusiveness that WotC is trying to put together. Whatever the game ends up being... it'd be nice to think that we wouldn't write it off sight unseen just because they chose to include some optional rules that cater to fans of editions you choose not to play. I'm not saying you need to USE those rules in your own game... not by a longshot... but hopefully we can all have a bit of "live and let live" perspective for our own gaming picadillos when reading the upcoming books and then choosing whether to use them for upcoming campaigns.
 

dkyle

First Post
It doesn't seem that different to me. If HP was only mental or only luck or only whatever, a week of bedrest wouldn't be required in 1e, 2e, 3e etc to fully heal. The barbarian could just get screamed at by the Bard until he was healed.
Obviously there is a physical component.
If there is a physical component requiring that much time laid up in previous editions, some guy giving me the old "Win one for the Gipper" speech doesn't pass my believability test for getting someone back to full speed.

Older editions were inconsistent.

When damage was being dealt, HP were treated as being primarily intangible, with just a small representing component physical injury. Otherwise, carrying on without penalty (and no bleeding-out rules) would be completely absurd.

When healing was being applied, HP were treated as purely physical injury, and required that healing make sense on that basis.

To me, that strains believably. And I appreciate that 4E brought consistency to how HP operate.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
I think that the definitional problems with hp, and its massive implausibility predate 4e. I don't think 4e's nonmagical healing is at the heart of it's problems, it's more symptomatic of some deeper issues.

I do, however, think that hp is a dinosaur of a concept. It hasn't been replaced because, as some have said, it's simple and it keeps the game moving. But when the rest of the game became needlessly complex and hp remained as a vastly oversimplified construct, it caused some people's heads to explode (a situation not modeled well by the hp system). I think that if hp could be revised without adding a great deal of complexity, we could have a lot of design space to work on balance and plausibility issues. But it seems like hp just won't die.
 

Hussar

Legend
Really, there's not a heck of a lot more that can be added to this discussion.

It goes around and around and never achieves anything because neither side will actually pony up and state what they hope to achieve.

What is added to the game by insisting that HP=Physical damage? Is what's added to the game by insisting that HP=Physical damage worth what is lost? Is it a net gain?

If the only issue here is believability, well, why should yours trump mine? Why do you get to say, "Well, it must be this long and no shorter because any shorter hurts my suspension of disbelief"?

Now, if there is an actual, tangible benefit that you can show for this interpretation, then fair enough, let's see it. Convince me why it's better. Don't tell me why you don't like my interpretation, tell me why I should like yours better. Sell it to me.

Because, from where I'm standing, right now, the price of admission is way too high. HP=Physical Injury means you lose so much design space (any effect that hurts the character but doesn't actually cause physical damage must now be modeled another way, for example). It also has serious pacing ramifications. If HP=Physical Damage, then we need longer healing times, which means more down time, which means more screwing around waiting to get back to the adventure. It also means that magical healing becomes the default method for all healing because, if HP=Physical damage is part of the resource management game, players are going to stock up on that resource in any way they can. We go back to healing wands and barrels of healing potions.

Which, at the end of the day, brings us full circle back to basically zero healing time as all wounds are simply tapped away with wands of cure light.

Granted, you can fix that by making wands more expensive. And potions too. But, that has the knock on effect of making wands and potions more valuable. Now, groups flog unwanted potions and wands for large chunks of cash. On and on and on.

This is not a simple issue.
 

Sorry Hussar but the game matching my sense of believability (even if you disagree with it) is more important to me than what a rule achieves in term of game play because without the believability I can't get into the game. For me this has everything to do with my sense of believability and immersion. Granted we all have different threshholds, but believability issues are a chief complaint for 4e and I think that is because it crosses alot of peoples thresholds (everything from surges to mundane encounter and daily powers). you don't have to agree with me at all. You can think I am fool if you want, but lets stop with the implications that it is all "really about something else". Just take our critiques at face value move on. Because this is all in there with people saying our dislike of 4e is really about fear of change or a failure to understand 4e. I don't mean to single you out here, because even though we disagree, i usually get along with you just fine.
 

Mercutio01

First Post
the real issue going forward will be this:

If rules for hit point loss/recovery you don't like are printed in the book as optional rules right next to rules for hit point loss/recovery you DO like... will their mere existence mean you refuse to try the game altogether?

I find it saddening that it seems like many threads have had that reaction from some people. That the mere existence of optional rules/modules they don't like means they will refuse to even play the game, regardless of how good the rest of the game might be.
What seems to drive some of these arguments is "which one is the core and which is the option?" Not that it makes your point any less valid, because that is essentially what I'm seeing, too. But it seems like those who like HP recovery* rule from 2nd Edition want that as the "core" with the 4th Edition rule as the "option," and those who are hardcore 4E fans want the HP recovery from 4th to be the "core" with the 2nd Edition as the "option."

That distinction seems to be the ultimate driving force behind more than a few of these discussions.

* Just an example. This applies equally to all sorts of these discussions, from classes to races, from Vancian magic to pure spell points, etc.
 
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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
On the other hand if I need to be laid up for a week to recover because I've just been hit hard by an axe, the fact that I am wandering around with absolutely no penalty doesn't pass my believability test.

I think you're missing the penalty that reduced hit points impose - that you can't take as much of a beating before being killed. Your offense may not be directly compromised, but your defense certainly is.
 

pauljathome

First Post
So you feel that 4e mundane healing is unrealistic because your interpretation of hit points differs from the definition of hit points of every edition so far?
.

Or he recognizes the huge inconsistencies in the "definition" of hit points in every edition so far.

Hit points ARE hugely unrealistic. They are also hugely useful from a gaming perspective. And we've all internalized them so much that they now seem almost realistic. But if you look at how they actually work they clearly are VERY unrealistic.

Unfortunately, as far as I know nobody has so far come up with a better mechanism. "Better" in that they are more realistic, as useful from a gaming perspective, quick and easy to use, and scale across a wide range of power levels.

And before people ask, yes I've played Gurps, Hero, RQ, Shadowrun, M&M, RoleMaster, Star Wars and countless other games. All the systems with alternatives to hit points have flaws together with advantages. There is a reason that no single alternative has been adopted by the industry.
 

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