Reason for including Endurance instead of just Fortitude?

[AbdulAlhazred]

Allowing the save bonus to be derived from one of two stats was a heretical crutch to allow better defenses for some classes. It would be a compounding of sins against the Holy 6 Ability Scores to allow skills to use one of two stats.

Its more like having 6 kinds of defense is too much of a good thing. 3 is enough. Not that the resulting system is perfect, but I think that was original thinking behind that game mechanic. 4e actually just inherited it from 3e and you notice that in 3e those were saves and thus active. 4e regularized things so all defenses were passive and that made them distinct from skills, thus we end up with the Athletics, Acrobatics, Endurance, etc skills, which could all really simply be called attribute checks. Then the issue would be training, so you'd still have to have feats to allow those checks to be boosted, or else you end up with 2 parallel systems.

I agree, endurance is kind of a weak skill, but it was a logically necessary one. Also it isn't as weak as people make it out to be. Endurance checks don't come up a LOT but when they do, they are usually pretty important. Its one of those skills you won't need often, but when you do it will save your skin (at least in my campaign).

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

Though I run mostly LFR games, I still encourage my players to push the system, stunt and otherwise not feel limited by their power suite and skills selection. This has led to more than one occasion where I felt the best representation of something was to have the player roll a d20 plus all of their defense modifiers - essentially to make a Will, Reflex or Fortitude save.

F'rinstance - a character one wanted to make a called shot outside of combat to knock a dagger out of an NPC's hand to prevent a murder. I had him do a short solo Skill Challenge consisting of his ranged basic attack, a Perception check and a Will 'save.'

Returning to the topic at hand, I agree that Endurance would cover strenuous conditions over time where Fortitude deals with a single overpowering effect. You want to win a bar bet with a large number of ales over a couple hours? Endurance. You want to win in one go by eating the Dire Hot Pepper of Internal Dehydration? Fortitude.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'd take a note for 5E or d20 Modern 2.0 or Star Wars SAGA Deluxe: Make all defenses into skills. Use the passive value as defense and the rolled value for active uses.

 

[Flipguarder]

I'd take a note for 5E or d20 Modern 2.0 or Star Wars SAGA Deluxe: Make all defenses into skills. Use the passive value as defense and the rolled value for active uses.

I think that's a poor idea. Then you just have these 3 or 4 skills that are just clearly better (because people will put points into them because they also increase defense).

 

[Voadam]

endurance works into skill challenges well. Fortitude does not. It's pretty much that simple.

Oh yeah, and brv.

brv?

 

[Flipguarder]

battlerage vigor

 

[abyssaldeath]

Battlerage Vigor, but I think what he really means is the Invigorating keyword.

 

[Garthanos]

brv?

Battle rager vigor... (Martial Power)
now errata'd so it doesnt make the fighter immune to multiple minions and a better striker and defender (still makes for a fine meat shield... with more bite if you try to ignore him than if you dont).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think that's a poor idea. Then you just have these 3 or 4 skills that are just clearly better (because people will put points into them because they also increase defense).

That is an issue. But it might be dealt with in some ways, like having the benefits of skill training be more nuanced and every class having some benefits in that area. Or just by having them be considered skills for most mechanical purposes, but give them a special "silo".

The interesting thing is it also opens up other uses. It might actually be okay to use Bluff as an attack skill vs Insight for example. Or Use the Force vs Willpower. It helps "fixing" the math further by removing the disparity between attack rolls and "normal" checks.

It obviously introduces new problems, too.

In Torg, there were about 5 skills that had strong in-combat use (but didn't deal or inflict damage directly).
Maneuver, Trick, Taunt, Test of Wills, Intimidate. You resisted these skills with the skill itself. It was impossible to keep all the related attributes and skills high, you had to choose your speciality and ensure that the group overall would cover them all. Monsters, of course, had the same weaknesses. Even the most deadly Cyborg from the Cyberpapacy might be highly suspectible to a Trick or Test of Wills, weakening him to make it easier to avoid his attacks or possibly even land your own.

I suppose even 5E won't go that far.